We need to start lobbying for point system reform

[Jason Snyder]

We could also ban all hunting content from YT/FB/IG.

The Eastman’s effect was very real long before social media.

 

[HuntHarder]

Simple fix. Go to a bonus point. You have 10 bonus points, you get 10 entries. Everyone has a shot, state agencies still get their scratch.

Very simple.

Arizona does this and point creep is out of control. Some units are gaining a point a year. Catching up is going to be impossible, but on the bright side, you always have atleast a chance to draw, albeit a very small chance.

 

[Rifleman86]

But, when it comes down to it. The residents need to be the ones who decide we need change.

Ultimately this is true.

That said I wouldn’t bet against places like WY reforming their systems to address creep. Despite the massive special price increase this year creep still affected the special draw and odds weren’t that much different between the two draw systems. It’s because the math with points doesn’t work unless you have a way to get some of the points out of the system.

The outfitter lobby didn’t get what they ultimately wanted out of the price increase, which is repeat clientele. If that’s what they want (and they do), they are going to have to lobby for point system reform. The only other option is an outfitter pool, and WY residents are mostly opposed to that thankfully.

 

[IDVortex]

The Eastman’s effect was very real long before social media.

Id say the affect is still there.

 

[Jason Snyder]

Id say the affect is still there.

Sure, just pointing out the toothpaste was out of the tube a long time ago. Social media, GoHunt, et al just put gas on the fire.

 

[SDHNTR]

The Eastman’s effect was very real long before social media.

Real, perhaps, but small. Eastmans was/is nothing compared to the main social media platforms. Same with this and other similar websites.

 

[Jason Snyder]

Real, perhaps, but small. Eastmans was/is nothing compared to the main social media platforms. Same with this and other similar websites.

No way. Point creep started a long time ago. It just took a while for folks to realize it because it finally spread to the generals and lower tier units.

 

[Rifleman86]

No way. Point creep started a long time ago. It just took a while for folks to realize it because it finally spread to the generals and lower tier units.

Exactly. It’s not necessarily a demand problem, it’s a math problem.

Demand can and does affect it, but when the number of hunters applying overall goes down and point creep still goes up, there is a problem.

I haven’t totaled it up, but I’m fairly certain less people applied in WY this year for full priced elk compared to last year and creep was still crazy.

 

[SDHNTR]

No way. Point creep started a long time ago. It just took a while for folks to realize it because it finally spread to the generals and lower tier units.

It did, but in no manner of magnitude compared to the social medial effect. Back then, you had to actually read Eastmans, and Huntin Fool. Reading is hard. Watching Newberg movies is much easier!

 

[Jason Snyder]

It did, but in no manner of magnitude compared to the social medial effect. Back then, you had to actually read Eastmans, and Huntin Fool. Reading is hard. Watching Newberg movies is much easier!

All those folks with double digit points didn’t get them since the YT craze.

Yes the YT effect is very real, just in different ways.

 

[SDHNTR]

I haven’t totaled it up, but I’m fairly certain less people applied in WY this year for full priced elk compared to last year and creep was still crazy.

How is that possible?

 

[Muley Tag]

Arizona does this and point creep is out of control. Some units are gaining a point a year. Catching up is going to be impossible, but on the bright side, you always have atleast a chance to draw, albeit a very small chance.

Only because they changed the rules halfway through and now allow a percentage to top BP holders. If it was a straight BP system point creep wouldn’t climb like it is.

 

[Muley Tag]

Changes need to be made…..either no point system or a straight unaltered BP system. We need to quit thinking of those in the game now and plan for the new young hunters. It’s hard to recruit new hunters when they know, mathematically, they can’t draw a tag.

 

[HuntHarder]

Dwindling numbers of available harvest is a bigger problem than Bonus points. Take Arizona deer hunting for example:
1972- 66,905 1st and 2nd choice applicants for general deer. 74,096 permits issued 18% hunt success rate
2016- 77,834 1st and 2nd choice applicants for general deer. 42,034 permits issued. 36% hunt success rate

Bonus points are the least of our worries and are often the single biggest issue hunters complain about.

 

[RyanT26]

Far too much money in point systems I don’t see a way that the states are going to give all that up.

 

[Traveler]

A lot would change if Colorado

1) get rid of unlimited OTC
2) if you hunt an A tag you lose your points


Part of the reason point creep is bad in Wyoming and elsewhere is because CO is a fall back.

 

[wapitibob]

applicants from the demand reports...

2023 special 8762
2024 special 6147

2023 regular 19934
2024 regular 21005


Some hunts I looked in the special dropped 2 points, others stayed the same and a few went up a point. The problem when looking at those demand reports is they only show actual hunt applicants. The guys only buying points aren't shown and when they do finally apply, they usually have points to guarantee the license which bumps creep a point or so.

 

[william schmaltz]

Points are not the problem. Too many people are the problem. It’s too easy to apply.

I’ve said this before, it’s a simple fix, front all tag and license money at the time of application and no credit cards. Just like anything else in life, you shouldn’t apply with money you don’t have. Draw odds would dramatically improve instantly.

I agree that everyone should have to apply and put the full tag price down upon application; but I’m not sure it would drop it much. I just applied for MD rifle and WT muzzleloader in my home state that requires the tag fee in order to apply. For WT ML, there will likely be ~80 first time applicants in 2024 with over 300 people in front of them for a grand total of 4 tags. For the MD rifle, there will likely be ~80 first time applicants with nearly 350 people in front of them for ONE tag.

 

[wapitibob]

Requiring every applicant to apply for a hunt or lose points is in my opinion, one of the worse things you can do in a draw system with points. All those people are currently sitting on the bench, invisible, and they're the majority. If you force them to apply, the upper tier units will have explosive creep with multiple point jumps, and they don't even want the tag. I'd rather see a few here n there vs more than doubling the size of the app pools.

 

[HingleMcCringleberry]

Another way to fix it is just eliminate point systems. Go to a completely random draw.

Sure point holders will be mad, but somebody is getting screwed no matter what you do.