We have officially come full circle!

[bsnedeker]

Just going to point this out and state it. You dont need to beat everyone to death who has questions or differing opinions. You can educate people without belittling them, in fact you would probably gain a lot more from it. Just my .02

Just my personal opinion, but I appreciate the way Form engages in these discussions. By asking these questions he is driving at understanding/helping YOU understand where your logic (or lack thereof) is coming from. Rather than staight up TELL you that you are wrong he simply asks questions to test your assumptions.

If you read his comments as belittling to the other person that's understandable, but it's not how I take his comments at all.



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[svivian]

Just my personal opinion, but I appreciate the way Form engages in these discussions. By asking these questions he is driving at understanding/helping YOU understand where your logic (or lack thereof) is coming from. Rather than staight up TELL you that you are wrong he simply asks questions to test your assumptions.

If you read his comments as belittling to the other person that's understandable, but it's not how I take his comments at all.



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Thats fair, i suppose im more of a straight the point without sounding like a dick person. My point being im not trying to argue one way or the other on the topic. Just had a question on a particular thing that caught my eye.

 

[Formidilosus]

I never said anything like that, if so please show me specifically where. I do not believe any caliber will magically drop an elk while another wont. I've seen elk dropped with a 22-250

Apologies. That was me reading your comments incorrectly.

I find it contradictory that you will commonly quote your experience in the amount of animals killed yet when anyone else does you feel the need to attack and question. I'm merely posting my observations the same as you are based on personal experience. Im not here to get in a dick measuring contest, i know you killed many more animals. Im asking you questions in regards to it because of your experience.

No, sir. That is not what I am or have tried to do, so again apologies that it read that way. I try to state things without emotion and plainly.
Everyone should question everything. My question to you was just to get a frame of reference. Nothing personal at all. A lot of people have killed one deer a year for twenty years and consider that “a lot”. What I have found is that when people have killed medium/big game into the multiples of hundreds or thousands with a variety or cartridges/calibers/bullets, they have seen enough to realize that there isn’t much difference between any of the CF cartridges. If someone has only killed a few elk with the same gun/cartridge/bullet, or similar, they tend to believe that experience is representative of the guns/cartridges/bullets and elk across the board.
If I went by the first 5-10 elk I killed or saw killed with 30’s and 338’s with bonded and mono bullets, I too would think that those big 30’s and 338’s were barely adequate. The least amount of rounds put into those first few elk was 4, all vital hits because they were up and moving. The thing is, 5-10 animals is not enough of a sample size to really gauge anything.

In regards to the anchor shot here is your quote below. and again above you said at times that it is required. Im simply stating I have never been in a situation that required it. Seeing your photos where it was clearly done raised the question

Sometimes it is necessary. One of those rear end shots was due to the requirement that the animals can not leave a certain piece of property no matter what- it was culling, not “hunting”. The other rear end shot was from a buck that had been rutting/fighting and was bedded with a doe that was shot in the neck which resulted in an instant drop. When I got to where the buck was, the buck and the doe were running away. I followed up the heavy blood trail and jumped him again, not knowing exactly what happened, except that there was lot blood, I took the shot I had. He dropped of course, yet was still trying to move. A last chest shot ended it. The wound in his neck you could fit a soft ball through, and yet it did not stop him. Some individual animals such as him have a lot of drive, that is life.

Just going to point this out and state it. You dont need to beat everyone to death who has questions or differing opinions. You can educate people without belittling them, in fact you would probably gain a lot more from it. Just my .02

I do not try to beat anyone to death, the whole point of what I write is to provide information, and to learn information from others. I do not post “I think/I feel/I believe”. There are things that are facts- terminal ballistics is one of those. I generally write sort of dry and clinically, apologies if it comes off as anything but emotionless information.

As I said earlier - question everything.

 

[Formidilosus]

Just my personal opinion, but I appreciate the way Form engages in these discussions. By asking these questions he is driving at understanding/helping YOU understand where your logic (or lack thereof) is coming from. Rather than staight up TELL you that you are wrong he simply asks questions to test your assumptions.

 

[Miflatlander91]

Op I'm with you on the original topic our antelope hunt last year I had my 300 wm with me as I'm very comfortable with that gun in most conditions. My 6.5 was also on the hunt with a good friend thst does not shoot much.

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[ToolMann]

Not much of an emotional person, but if I had a “favorite” cartridge it is the 243 with 95gr ballistic tips. Or 300WM with 178gr Amax’s/ELD-M’s.

@Formidilosus have you taken elk with the 95BT in 243. Testing a load this weekend with that combo. If it wasn't the first rifle i bought my son 14 years ago it'd be down the road. I like 243 but this thing is extremely picky. May add another Tikka to the stable so I can have a 243 that shoots accurately.

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus have you taken elk with the 95BT in 243. Testing a load this weekend with that combo. If it wasn't the first rifle i bought my son 14 years ago it'd be down the road. I like 243 but this thing is extremely picky. May add another Tikka to the stable so I can have a 243 that shoots accurately.

I have not personally. I have seen others use it. They performed well. They were designed by Gail Root specifically for that; put them in the front half and you have a dead elk.

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus have you taken elk with the 95BT in 243. Testing a load this weekend with that combo. If it wasn't the first rifle i bought my son 14 years ago it'd be down the road. I like 243 but this thing is extremely picky. May add another Tikka to the stable so I can have a 243 that shoots accurately.

The reason that I haven’t is because by the time we were hunting elk I had already moved on from 6mm’s due to bullets available and the change of the 115gr DTAC to a closed nose design- basically the 223/77gr TMK combo had taken the spot of the 6mm’s. The BC of the 95gr NBT is not great, even if terminally they are good. If someone is only shooting to 450-500’ish yards, they certainly are worth a look and there is no animal in America I wouldn’t use them on.

Now with a couple of newer bullets and the proliferation of fast twist 6mm’s, the 6mm is back at the forefront for me.

 

[ToolMann]

The reason that I haven’t is because by the time we were hunting elk I had already moved on from 6mm’s due to bullets available and the change of the 115gr DTAC to a closed nose design- basically the 223/77gr TMK combo had taken the spot of the 6mm’s. The BC of the 95gr NBT is not great, even if terminally they are good. If someone is only shooting to 450-500’ish yards, they certainly are worth a look and there is no animal in America I wouldn’t use them on.

Now with a couple of newer bullets and the proliferation of fast twist 6mm’s, the 6mm is back at the forefront for me.

Thanks. We can't use 223 for big game here otherwise I'd be adding one. Have BTs and ABs for our 30.06 and 7mm-08 too. Finding bullets is still difficult.

 

[svivian]

Apologies. That was me reading your comments incorrectly.







No, sir. That is not what I am or have tried to do, so again apologies that it read that way. I try to state things without emotion and plainly.
Everyone should question everything. My question to you was just to get a frame of reference. Nothing personal at all. A lot of people have killed one deer a year for twenty years and consider that “a lot”. What I have found is that when people have killed medium/big game into the multiples of hundreds or thousands with a variety or cartridges/calibers/bullets, they have seen enough to realize that there isn’t much difference between any of the CF cartridges. If someone has only killed a few elk with the same gun/cartridge/bullet, or similar, they tend to believe that experience is representative of the guns/cartridges/bullets and elk across the board.
If I went by the first 5-10 elk I killed or saw killed with 30’s and 338’s with bonded and mono bullets, I too would think that those big 30’s and 338’s were barely adequate. The least amount of rounds put into those first few elk was 4, all vital hits because they were up and moving. The thing is, 5-10 animals is not enough of a sample size to really gauge anything.




Sometimes it is necessary. One of those rear end shits was due to the requirement that the animals die not leave a certain piece of property no matter what- it was culling, not “hunting”. The other rear end shot was from a buck that had been rutting/fighting and was bedded with a doe that was shot in the neck which resulted in an instant drop. When I got to where the buck was, the buck and the doe were running away. I followed up the heavy blood trail and jumped him again, not knowing exactly what happened, except that there was lot blood, I took the shot I had. He dropped of course, yet was still trying to move. A last chest shot ended it. The wound in his neck you could fit a soft ball through, and yet it did not stop him. Some individual animals such as him have a lot of drive, that is life.





I do not try to beat anyone to death, the whole point of what I write is to provide information, and to learn information from others. I do not post “I think/I feel/I believe”. There are things that are facts- terminal ballistics is one of those. I generally write sort of dry and clinically, apologies if it comes off as anything but emotionless information.

As I said earlier - question everything.

Thank you I appreciate the response and clarification. The Internet can be a real bitch to communicate on sometimes. Also I edited my previous response while you were typing this...

To add context to where I am coming from with my questions. I have killed or been apart of killing anywhere from 4-8 big game animals a year for the least 17 years. I've seen or personally killed with as small as a .22-250 up to a 375 H&H mag on a small doe(I was 13 and my brother took my 30-06 and that's all that was left for me to grab. Funny enough the doe had a hole blown through its shoulders and still ran 150 yards). I'm not in the camp of bigger means better, I care about what the bullet does.

 

[BjornF16]

The reason that I haven’t is because by the time we were hunting elk I had already moved on from 6mm’s due to bullets available and the change of the 115gr DTAC to a closed nose design- basically the 223/77gr TMK combo had taken the spot of the 6mm’s. The BC of the 95gr NBT is not great, even if terminally they are good. If someone is only shooting to 450-500’ish yards, they certainly are worth a look and there is no animal in America I wouldn’t use them on.

Now with a couple of newer bullets and the proliferation of fast twist 6mm’s, the 6mm is back at the forefront for me.

105 Berger and 108 ELD-M...anything else?

 

[Formidilosus]

Thank you I appreciate the response and clarification. The Internet can be a real bitch to communicate on sometimes. Also I edited my previous response while you were typing this...

To add context to where I am coming from with my questions. I have killed or been apart of killing anywhere from 4-8 big game animals a year for the least 17 years. I've seen or personally killed with as small as a .22-250 up to a 375 H&H mag on a small doe(I was 13 and my brother took my 30-06 and that's all that was left for me to grab. Funny enough the doe had a hole blown through its shoulders and still ran 150 yards). I'm not in the camp of bigger means better, I care about what the bullet does.

Almost of these discussions would become academic if people would start caring about what the actual bullet does.

 

[Formidilosus]

105 Berger and 108 ELD-M...anything else?

109gr ELD-M, 95gr TMK, Hornady 105gr HPBT, 105gr and 112gr Barnes match burners, and potentially the 115gr DTAC with Nosering. I say potentially because we only have 12 game animals (I think) using it. They do not upset/fragment below about 2,300fps impact, but are tumbling consistently so far, creating very good wound channels. 8 in elk last year from 60’ish yards to 970 yards, and every bullet exited even through shoulders.

 

[orhunter1]

The reason that I haven’t is because by the time we were hunting elk I had already moved on from 6mm’s due to bullets available and the change of the 115gr DTAC to a closed nose design- basically the 223/77gr TMK combo had taken the spot of the 6mm’s. The BC of the 95gr NBT is not great, even if terminally they are good. If someone is only shooting to 450-500’ish yards, they certainly are worth a look and there is no animal in America I wouldn’t use them on.

Now with a couple of newer bullets and the proliferation of fast twist 6mm’s, the 6mm is back at the forefront for me.

What bullet do you recommend for a .243 Sako 24" barrel with a 1:10 twist rate.

 

[Formidilosus]

What bullet do you recommend for a .243 Sako 24" barrel with a 1:10 twist rate.

How far are you planning on shooting big game?

 

[BjornF16]

109gr ELD-M, 95gr TMK, Hornady 105gr HPBT, 105gr and 112gr Barnes match burners, and potentially the 115gr DTAC with Nosering. I say potentially because we only have 12 game animals (I think) using it. They do not upset/fragment below about 2,300fps impact, but are tumbling consistently so far, creating very good wound channels. 8 in elk last year from 60’ish yards to 970 yards, and every bullet exited even through shoulders.

What are your recommended minimum impact velocities?

95 TMK - 1800?
Hornady 105 HPBT - ?
Berger 105 - 2100?
Barnes 105 gr Matchburner - 2000?
Barnes 112 gr Matchburner - 2000?
115 gr DTAC w/ NR - ?

 

[Formidilosus]

What are your recommended minimum impact velocities?

95 TMK - 1800?
Hornady 105 HPBT - ?
Berger 105 - 2100?
Barnes 105 gr Matchburner - 2000?
Barnes 112 gr Matchburner - 2000?
115 gr DTAC w/ NR - ?

TMK’s across the board show good upset to 1800’ish FPS. I have seen enough at 1,700 to be comfortable, though that is at ranges that most won’t/shouldn’t shoot.


Basically all the HPBT’s- Berger VLD’s, Hornady, and those Barnes do well down to 1,900-1,800fps. 1,900 they are comfortably upsetting, usually get adequate upset at 1,800fps. I wouldn’t count on much below that.

Due to the DTAC tumbling instead of expanding/fragmenting below 2,300ish FPS- I don’t know what the lower limit is. The lowest we have taken it was 1,600 FPS or just under, and one bullet was pure lungs and ribs, tumbled and exiting leaving a good wound. The second bullet was ribs, lungs, ribs, and through the scapula, exiting as well. My feeling is that on elk the DTAC will be prove to be a very capable bullet due to the body size and tumbling; on deer it could go either way. I do prefer what the 108gr ELD-M and 85gr TMK does to deer however.

 

[orhunter1]

How far are you planning on shooting big game?

300 to 400 yards.

 

[Formidilosus]

300 to 400 yards.

95gr Nosler Ballistic Tip. Maybe, the 95gr TMK but you will be on the fence of it stabilizing in a 10” twist.

 

[orhunter1]

you mean 95gt Nosler will stabilize but not the 95gr TMK?