Unpopular Opinion: I don't like Dave Ramsey

I have been listening to a lot of his you tube videos recently. I hear him talk about NEVER going debt to start a business. How in world would a person who wants to start a business like mine (logging) ever do if without borrowing. I would have had to wait 20yrs before I would have saved enough to buy the very minimal things to log. It just doesn't work like that.
 
I have been listening to a lot of his you tube videos recently. I hear him talk about NEVER going debt to start a business. How in world would a person who wants to start a business like mine (logging) ever do if without borrowing. I would have had to wait 20yrs before I would have saved enough to buy the very minimal things to log. It just doesn't work like that.

He’s preaching to the 8-5 W2-ers out there that need absolute facts to follow in order to be successful longer term. I don’t think his thoughts work well for most business owners.


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He’s preaching to the 8-5 W2-ers out there that need absolute facts to follow in order to be successful longer term. I don’t think his thoughts work well for most business owners.


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Most businesses owners were 8-5 w2 guys before they took on debt to start a business.
 
I feel like stirring this pot.



Both of the above quotes make a solid point. Dave Ramsey is a social media influencer who failed at a real business, but became wealthy selling a product about how to succeed.

When a person's only success is selling the story of their success, you have to stop and question if they are who you want to be. Especially when that person uses religion to bully those who disagree.

I prefer no debt, it has to do with risk tolerance, but odds are I would be much better off if I had bought property, rather than renting for years. I'm certainly better off financially due to taking on student loans a few years back. Having a car loan, both times, has been a good choice. I'm glad to have a mortgage rather than paying a landlord now too.

However, I'm working on getting rid of my debts more aggressively than many recommend here because it opens up an easy of movement that I miss.

In the end, people have to decide what matters to them, then pursue it without being a fool in their methods. Life is too complex for a one method fits all.
Well said.
DR doesn’t provide the most optimal investment and planning advice. But most folks in the bottom 80% would benefit from following his instructions.


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He’s preaching to the 8-5 W2-ers out there that need absolute facts to follow in order to be successful longer term. I don’t think his thoughts work well for most business owners.


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I get that lots of his advice can help many people. What I don’t understand is why the portions of his advice that some (myself included) believe is wrong, incomplete or subject to debate couldn’t be handled differently. Or at least that the nuance is addressed.

Maybe there is room for Marbles to start a competitive podcast.
 
I get that lots of his advice can help many people. What I don’t understand is why the portions of his advice that some (myself included) believe is wrong, incomplete or subject to debate couldn’t be handled differently. Or at least that the nuance is addressed.
Agree. An example of agreement with Ramsey in my case is I have played around with a debt calculator and for my debt prefer the snowball method over the avalanche, the total difference in interest paid is too small vs the psychological advantage of seeing loans disappear faster (and the security of having smaller monthly expenses as payments go away). If all my debt didn't fall in the 2-5% range, it could be very different.

As a good tool for anyone interested:
Maybe there is room for Marbles to start a competitive podcast.
Please, no.

I could only become a charlatan. Even in areas where I might have something worth saying, just trying to set out with the intent of saying it starts an ugly transformation in my thinking. For me it is better to step back and accept being silent if the situation doesn't flow. (For those who find me verbose on here, just imagine how much worse it world be if I cut loose the other 2/3rds).

Finances are well outside my scope, as with every adult, I have to deal with my own finances and try to make informed decisions. But, those decisions are tailored to me, for my temperament and situation and family needs and my families temperament.

Also, just look how wordy this reply is, when 2 words and an emoji would have sufficed, and now, for a 5 hour podcast on how to stay out of debt while buying everything with a credit card, and the times when you shouldn't......

Buy the way, anyone have experience with M12 laser levels? I really want one for hanging pictures once a year and SQUIRREL!!!
 
I have been listening to a lot of his you tube videos recently. I hear him talk about NEVER going debt to start a business. How in world would a person who wants to start a business like mine (logging) ever do if without borrowing. I would have had to wait 20yrs before I would have saved enough to buy the very minimal things to log. It just doesn't work like that.
It’s really no different than his advice on mortgages. 20% down on a 15 year. By the time the vast majority of people could achieve that now, houses will cost twice as much.

I don’t have anything against Ramsey. I don’t agree with him on things but there are a lot of people that could benefit from some of his philosophies.

The part I really don’t get is how many of his followers act like if you have a speck of debt, your obviously one second away from bankruptcy or if you say anything negative about what he teaches, they act like you just shit down their throat. The dude has built a cult like following. He is the T Swift of the financial world.
 
It’s really no different than his advice on mortgages. 20% down on a 15 year. By the time the vast majority of people could achieve that now, houses will cost twice as much.

I don’t have anything against Ramsey. I don’t agree with him on things but there are a lot of people that could benefit from some of his philosophies.

The part I really don’t get is how many of his followers act like if you have a speck of debt, your obviously one second away from bankruptcy or if you say anything negative about what he teaches, they act like you just shit down their throat. The dude has built a cult like following. He is the T Swift of the financial world.


I bought my house in 2019, had I waited and saved more until 2021 it would have costed another 200k, had I continued saving to meet the new 20% the interest rate would have gone from 3% to 6% and I couldn’t afford the mortgage.

Given that I’ve never been drowned in debt I’ve always struggled to find value in much that he teaches given that once you’re in the black/out of high interest debt it’s seemed pretty suboptimized.

I think the money guys channel has a little better optimization of personal financials imo but I still deviate as I put saving for my kids college much higher on the list than anyone seems to. I get it, they are prioritizing their followers savings but I can tell just how big of an advantage I had coming out of undergrad debt free so I’ll make sure my kids do too.

It clicked for me about Ramsay when I saw an interview where he said if he could have a 0% interest billion dollar loan he wouldn’t take it. Aha! It’s m not about what’s best for the situation it’s about what aligns with the product he’s selling, and any deviation will not be allowed.
 
I bought my house in 2019, had I waited and saved more until 2021 it would have costed another 200k, had I continued saving to meet the new 20% the interest rate would have gone from 3% to 6% and I couldn’t afford the mortgage.

Given that I’ve never been drowned in debt I’ve always struggled to find value in much that he teaches given that once you’re in the black/out of high interest debt it’s seemed pretty suboptimized.

I think the money guys channel has a little better optimization of personal financials imo but I still deviate as I put saving for my kids college much higher on the list than anyone seems to. I get it, they are prioritizing their followers savings but I can tell just how big of an advantage I had coming out of undergrad debt free so I’ll make sure my kids do too.

It clicked for me about Ramsay when I saw an interview where he said if he could have a 0% interest billion dollar loan he wouldn’t take it. Aha! It’s m not about what’s best for the situation it’s about what aligns with the product he’s selling, and any deviation will not be allowed.
Same here. My wife and I bought our house in 2015 at 4% interest. I just filled out a financial statement this past week. Our house would cost 68% more now and interest quite a bit more. I even got a 30yr loan. But on track to pay off in 23yrs.
 
Same here. My wife and I bought our house in 2015 at 4% interest. I just filled out a financial statement this past week. Our house would cost 68% more now and interest quite a bit more. I even got a 30yr loan. But on track to pay off in 23yrs.
Yeah, I’ve chosen to just push investing and keep it liquid until I have enough to pay off the full balance. Given my rate is so low I just consider it a “free” massive nest egg for emergencies for now.

Once I get enough to pay the full balance it will be an interesting conversation lol
 
I was sitting next to a guy last night with wealth in the 100’s of millions. I asked about how he makes money buying companies. He said only use a small amount of your own money and use leverage to buy the rest. Incentivize whomever you have running the business to pay off the debt by giving them increased equity in the business. In the end you have debt free business you own half of while the other person owning half busts it to make profit because he is also invested.

Yes Dave is great for 80% of the people out there. But you can’t make a lot of money without leverage.
 
I bought my house in 2019, had I waited and saved more until 2021 it would have costed another 200k, had I continued saving to meet the new 20% the interest rate would have gone from 3% to 6% and I couldn’t afford the mortgage.

Given that I’ve never been drowned in debt I’ve always struggled to find value in much that he teaches given that once you’re in the black/out of high interest debt it’s seemed pretty suboptimized.

I think the money guys channel has a little better optimization of personal financials imo but I still deviate as I put saving for my kids college much higher on the list than anyone seems to. I get it, they are prioritizing their followers savings but I can tell just how big of an advantage I had coming out of undergrad debt free so I’ll make sure my kids do too.

It clicked for me about Ramsay when I saw an interview where he said if he could have a 0% interest billion dollar loan he wouldn’t take it. Aha! It’s m not about what’s best for the situation it’s about what aligns with the product he’s selling, and any deviation will not be allowed.
Even taking out that it would have cost more would you still have been able to meet Dave’s recommendation? 20% down. 15 year. And your payment being no more than 25% of your take home.

To meet that recommendation on the house that I own, at its current value, you would have to put 86000 down and you would have to be bringing home about 12000 a month after taxes.
 
He has done well but I despise his arrogance. However, I did just make a DR move. I recently made a commission on selling 1500 acres and the next day paid off my $50k+ mortgage balance with plenty to spare....but only because there was plenty to spare. Unlike DR, I don't think paying off a mortgage is the rage in every situation.

I've often said, if you think you're having a bad day....watch COPS or listen in to Dave Ramsey callers.
 
Gotta go give him credit though. All he has done is branded Common Sense. And he is making a killing with it.
^^^this...Dave is fine for the masses as most lack the common sense he's peddling.
He's also making money selling products and services.
If your in the upper 20-30% of earners, Dave's not talking to you and your situation most likely doesn't fit his models/methods and will not help you optimize your earning/wealth building potential at all.
I dont have an issue with him personally. He's making money, but there are certainly ALOT sleezier ways that a whole lot more people are using to do the same.
That being said, I do think he's a bit behind the times and out of touch with current financial realities for most of his target audience, but I dont think he's preaching bad practice for those who would benefit most from his methods.

I gotta say I'd loose my flippin mind if I had to field some of the calls he does. Sometimes I think its staged...like a Financial version of the Jerry Springer show.
 
It's terrible advice that totally ignores the fundamental financial tenet of opportunity cost, but for people that are undisciplined or don't have any understanding of financial concepts, it's better than being neck deep in high interest debt.
You either have self control or you dont. It's the same logic people use in regard to pack size... the old saying "dont buy too big of a pack" hinges on the fact that people will stuff them full of gear they dont really need. If you have a list and stick to it, it doesn't matter how big your pack is because only what's on the list goes in.

Same thing with your finances. You can have a CC with a 30k limit and youre either the guy with 25k out on it because you have no self control or the guy(like op and others) who might use it monthly but pay it off immediately for the points/miles. You can also see the value in having one for emergency expenses when you don't want to dip into your savings with the idea you pay it off in 2-3 months time. A lot of newer CCs offer a payment plan on individual purchases as well that typically cut the interest rate down quite a bit.
 
Even taking out that it would have cost more would you still have been able to meet Dave’s recommendation? 20% down. 15 year. And your payment being no more than 25% of your take home.

To meet that recommendation on the house that I own, at its current value, you would have to put 86000 down and you would have to be bringing home about 12000 a month after taxes.
Barely, and mostly due to significant salary increases for me and my wife. As is we now have a mortgage escrow that’s like 10% of gross and have been able to dump a ton into tax advantaged accounts, and my return over that period has been roughly 12% vs 3% interest

his philosophy around low interest mortgage debt seems to be to instill fear of having your loan called because he got hung out and bankrupted when over leveraged but comparing his situation to a modern fixed rate home loan is…. Disingenuous.. at best.

That’s not me suggesting people should be buying million dollar homes on entry level salaries, just that there is an area of nuance larger than the Milky Way between those 2 situations
 
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