UM/S2H/Suppressors/Scopes and More!

[RockAndSage]

Are you the owner or part of the business? Let's start there. Fair?

You know, if you're actually well-intentioned, and professionally certified and accomplished in a relevant field, maybe everyone would be better off if you volunteered your time and expertise to the project in a private phone call.

 

[ElPollo]

I understand what you're saying, but if questions make people squirm, then don't post about product dev in a forum.

Could I PM the owner, and get answers? Sure. But that doesn't help anyone else lurking, that wants more information.

Especially with a product that can impact someone's health (hearing)?

You don't need to be an acoustic engineer to make a can. However, when certain interesting claims are made, then it naturally raises some interesting questions.

As I stated before, it's an opportunity for the owner to brag about the development process to achieve the goals.

Anyone going into the business of making a product to mitigate or attenuate noise should welcome a discussion.

And to state the obvious - I am not the only person interested in this product and claims, that has relevant knowledge and exposure to noise mitigation. There are others watching, but don't post here.

So you could say that I am interested in hearing from the owner, rather than state reasons to dismiss the product as others have (offline).

If the owner simply stated, "We're making it for ourselves, based on our informal tests. That's it, take it or leave it." that would be totally cool with me. My recommendation would be to simply re-eval the claims being made, or show the data.

My main takeaway from this start-up business - making a silencer/can/suppressor - is super positive - it is open, and has aired some dirty laundry. Super commendable!

I don’t believe that asking questions is what made this seem squirmy. It was the flexing of credentials. It’s a bit weird to do that anonymously behind a screen name.

That said, it’s pretty apparent that you are dealing with a startup that is unlikely to have a lot of the resources you are asking about. That comes across as either somewhat tone deaf or as someone who is trying to pick a fight. If you have experience in the suppressor industry you should know where these guys are coming from. If you want to be supportive, you can tactfully and privately offer advice or do so by asking questions without dropping your credentials. But flexing your credentials beforehand in a public forum is probably not the best way to that.

 

[Salmon River Solutions]

*grabs popcorn* and waits for Form to reply...

I don't know anything about anything. I just press the green button on machines.

 

[4th_point]

delete

 

[Sundodger]

Here's some food for thought...

Noise is a complicated field, yet it is common for the general population to believe that since they hear a sound, they are able to speculate and make assumptions about it. It's common and not that a big of a deal. It's ignorance, not lack of intelligence. And there's no risk just stating an opinion.

The worst offenders, that I have personally worked with, were mechanical engineers. Reasoning is a strong suit for an engineer, or should be, however most mechanical engineers are not exposed to advanced signal processing at the undergrad level. Some basic vibration and frequency analysis are taught, but noise/vibe is a special graduate program. So what happens is that they try to reason their way through a noise problem with what they have. That's fine, unless they make definitive claims or act as an authority.

I've seen well intentioned mechanical engineers run noise tests incorrectly with SLM (sound level meter) or vibe tests with the wrong type of accelerometer. The risk is huge, as product claims are then made off of the bogus data. This can have statutory, regulatory, and legal risks. If you make claims, you'd better be prepared to back them up in some industries as it becomes discoverable evidence in court.

Most of the electrical engineers that I worked with have been very cautious to speak about noise and vibe. I think it's due to the fact that they are heavily exposed to advanced signal processing, and more importantly, thinking in the frequency domain. In other words, they seem to understand the depth of their ignorance. Again, not lack of intelligence - they just don't have the proper background.

I don't know many mechanical engineers that are really knowledgeable about frequency analysis, unless they are involved with structural dynamics. Structural dynamics requires an advanced degree.

So even if someone is just using an SLM, they still need a certain level of competence. Even if frequency analysis is not an objective. There are pictures of silencer tests online, that make noise engineers shake their heads.

Hey now, you need to settle down with this anti ME rhetoric. ME's are the jacks of all trades in the engineering world, and are put in places they never should be by management. But that can be a positive, get to work on cool new stuff you have no business being in.

But to you your point, my quick heuristic to see if an NVH or structural dynamics engineer is worth talking to is if they think in the frequency domain.

Now that I think about it I don't think I have ever worked with a NVH or structural dynamics engineer that didn't have an advanced degree...

 

[fwafwow]

Are you the owner or part of the business? Let's start there. Fair?

I expect he will answer, but I don't know of the relevance - at least as a response to the question about which specific claims you are referencing. Note - I'm not against you on this tangent. I'm interested in your expertise and enjoying the dialogue. FWIW.

 

[nm.otter]

I am not the only person interested in this product and claims, that has relevant knowledge and exposure to noise mitigation. There are others watching, but don't post here.

Some of us with such training and experience are watching and do post here.

I have concerns about techniques and standards currently employed for ranking/comparing suppressors, along with a few ideas that might potentially improve those.

I'm less certain this thread is the best place to explore that.


Edit: I'm also on the waiting list (such as it is) for an Unknown Suppressor.

 

[IDVortex]

Then, you have the engineers who insist a solution works while the people actually implementing it know it doesn't.

I always thought this was only a issue in the construction world, not engineers in general....

 

[4th_point]

You know, if you're actually well-intentioned, and professionally certified and accomplished in a relevant field, maybe everyone would be better off if you volunteered your time and expertise to the project in a private phone call.

You're assuming that the business needs technical help. Maybe you know more about it than I do.

I'm not making that assumption - just asking for some clarification, from leadership at the business. I made the assumption that the resources have been determined and provided - that is competent people and appropriate equipment. This isn't like starting a utility trailer business in the old pole barn, just because I'm a good welder - there's a lot of shit to know, and risks!

Now, assuming that they need technical help:

Could I run the tests, analyze the spectra, and provide guidance? Sure. But that's not my focus and I'd rather remain impartial for this sector. There are bigger fish to fry in the hunting/shooting space and I have no dog in this fight. I'll buy the best can that suits my needs.

In terms of risk, my insurance doesn't cover consultation for product dev. Ever been deposed, over a faulty product?! I do my best to stay away from it.

That said, I already checked my work schedule for the next 6 months and I don't have any trips to ID (assuming that's where the business is located). My thought being that I could provide helpful pointers, if needed, in an unofficial capacity.

However, you can hire a noise engineer, licensed with PE, in most decent sized cities. That would be a competent and impartial party. And they would provide some level of assurance that the measurements are valid and in line with the claims.

Last...

I am not a noise guru. More like the man with one ear in the land of the deaf, with some fancy equipment and training by a expert in the field!

Anyone can PM me, if they want to discuss further. I have made all of my comments in this thread.

 

[JGRaider]

Good questions, and responses 4th point. It would be nice to see the testing done, especially with regards to the new can. Too bad you didn't get an answer with regards to the ownership question. Not sure why all the testing is so secretive being they've put themselves out on a public forum and all.

 

[Schmo]

Good questions, and responses 4th point. It would be nice to see the testing done, especially with regards to the new can. Too bad you didn't get an answer with regards to the ownership question. Not sure why all the testing is so secretive being they've put themselves out on a public forum and all.

Considering he just asked these questions (within last 24 hours, right) hasn’t given ownership much time to respond when they’re busy working.

 

[mtnwrunner]

Good questions, and responses 4th point. It would be nice to see the testing done, especially with regards to the new can. Too bad you didn't get an answer with regards to the ownership question. Not sure why all the testing is so secretive being they've put themselves out on a public forum and all.

He asked that question several hours ago about ownership. Instead of trying to initiate a controversy, consider that they are busy?
Novel concept i know.

Randy

 

[mtnwrunner]

Posted while schmo did. Great minds think alike.

Randy

 

[Speaks]

You're assuming that the business needs technical help. Maybe you know more about it than I do.

I'm not making that assumption - just asking for some clarification, from leadership at the business. I made the assumption that the resources have been determined and provided - that is competent people and appropriate equipment. This isn't like starting a utility trailer business in the old pole barn, just because I'm a good welder - there's a lot of shit to know, and risks!

Now, assuming that they need technical help:

Could I run the tests, analyze the spectra, and provide guidance? Sure. But that's not my focus and I'd rather remain impartial for this sector. There are bigger fish to fry in the hunting/shooting space and I have no dog in this fight. I'll buy the best can that suits my needs.

In terms of risk, my insurance doesn't cover consultation for product dev. Ever been deposed, over a faulty product?! I do my best to stay away from it.

That said, I already checked my work schedule for the next 6 months and I don't have any trips to ID (assuming that's where the business is located). My thought being that I could provide helpful pointers, if needed, in an unofficial capacity.

However, you can hire a noise engineer, licensed with PE, in most decent sized cities. That would be a competent and impartial party. And they would provide some level of assurance that the measurements are valid and in line with the claims.

Last...

I am not a noise guru. More like the man with one ear in the land of the deaf, with some fancy equipment and training by a expert in the field!

Anyone can PM me, if they want to discuss further. I have made all of my comments in this thread.

Im pretty sure they made no claims about this being hearing safe without proper PPE just that it hit a certain decibel reading, they also said what equipment was used and how. There were no bold claims of scientific testing. Perhaps I am recalling this from the podcast and not this thread.

Im pretty sure the aim was to build a can that was light weight, balanced well partly due to being OTB, had a specific type of sound, and reduced sound enough. Not enough to be safe without hearing pro, but enough for them to be happy with the result.

 

[Sundodger]

You're assuming that the business needs technical help. Maybe you know more about it than I do.

I'm not making that assumption - just asking for some clarification, from leadership at the business. I made the assumption that the resources have been determined and provided - that is competent people and appropriate equipment. This isn't like starting a utility trailer business in the old pole barn, just because I'm a good welder - there's a lot of shit to know, and risks!

Now, assuming that they need technical help:

Could I run the tests, analyze the spectra, and provide guidance? Sure. But that's not my focus and I'd rather remain impartial for this sector. There are bigger fish to fry in the hunting/shooting space and I have no dog in this fight. I'll buy the best can that suits my needs.

In terms of risk, my insurance doesn't cover consultation for product dev. Ever been deposed, over a faulty product?! I do my best to stay away from it.

That said, I already checked my work schedule for the next 6 months and I don't have any trips to ID (assuming that's where the business is located). My thought being that I could provide helpful pointers, if needed, in an unofficial capacity.

However, you can hire a noise engineer, licensed with PE, in most decent sized cities. That would be a competent and impartial party. And they would provide some level of assurance that the measurements are valid and in line with the claims.

Last...

I am not a noise guru. More like the man with one ear in the land of the deaf, with some fancy equipment and training by a expert in the field!

Anyone can PM me, if they want to discuss further. I have made all of my comments in this thread.

"Noise engineer" that has a PE?

You must be a CE

 

[Unknown Suppressors]

I am the owner, I am a mechanical engineer. The information we are gathering from the destructive testing is far more relevant than any information that can be gathered from any FEA or CFD model. That goes for sound suppression and strength. If anyone chooses to not buy our suppressors because they don't believe the sound or destructive testing is done to their liking, that is ok.

 

[Schmo]

I am the owner, I am a mechanical engineer. The information we are gathering from the destructive testing is far more relevant than any information that can be gathered from any FEA or CFD model. That goes for sound suppression and strength. If anyone chooses to not buy our suppressors because they don't believe the sound or destructive testing is done to their liking, that is ok.

@4th_point and @JGRaider,
Here you go. Like it or lump it as they say. For me, I like it.

 

[The Fish Box]

I thought it was pretty clear that they were just going for a product that sounds “best” to everyone’s ears while still being hearing safe. Nowhere was it stated they were hoping to make the world’s quietest suppressor.

 

[sz28]

PS - a competent noise engineer would realize that there are some obvious tests that could be done, and maybe they are yet to be released, but are missing from this thread.

Hence why I want to know the capability of the business. Especially as a potential customer.

This sounds like the engineers I work with when the tism starts getting the better of them!

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

This sounds like the engineers I work with when the tism starts getting the better of them!

Engineers love to make mountains out of mole hills in every application I’ve worked directly with them for the last 20+ years.

We tell them we want a pink elephant and they build us a purple rhino. Requirements exist from field users for a reason, they are the ones actually using the thing.