Ultralight Ultralight Rifles

[FullyTorqued]

The primary arms 5x micro prism came in today. Just waiting on the barrel! I’d estimate the barrel to be around 22oz, so I’m looking at 3lb 11oz empty. I also finished prepping 300 pieces of 5.56 brass-6x45 and some powder arrived this afternoon. The photo through the scope is a pair of Canadians at about 100 yards away. A huuuuge improvement over the red dot. I should have paid the extra $100 for x-caliber to rush my barrel hahaha

I just ordered the 5x micro-prism today too, with the MIL reticle. I’m not excited about the small 21’ FOV or short 2.7” eye relief, but the 8oz weight was just too tempting. Now if we could just get Form to drop test it. It has so few internal moving parts I would be shocked if it didn’t pass his tests though.

 

[Ringbill27]

Refer to this thread for examples of 223/5.56 effectiveness on larger game. The key is the correct bullet. 77gr TMK is the current favorite.

.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET. “Bullets matter more than headstamps.” “Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”. I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened. The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...

rokslide.com

I’ve done some reading in there. Lots of great points. I’m still going to grab something a little bigger.

 

[StupidLightweight]

I get wanting something bigger. Up until reading that massive thread on the 77 TMK’s effectiveness, I did too. But there’s one thing I encourage you to consider: recoil.

These lightweight guns are hard to shoot well in .223 form. Up the bullet weight, and recoil increases considerably. The most brutal gun I’ve shouldered and fired was a 2.25-pound .300 BLK bolt-action with a tiny, hard plastic stock.

Another strike against the 7.62x39 is how poorly the heavily tapered case works in AR mags. If you need .30-cal, I suggest .300 HAM’R.

 

[Ringbill27]

The most brutal gun I’ve shouldered and fired was a 2.25-pound .300 BLK bolt-action with a tiny, hard plastic stock.

Another strike in the 7.62x39 is how poorly the heavily tapered case works in AR mags. If you need .30-cal, I suggest .300 HAM’R.

Uffda I’m not sure I could figure out how to build that light of a rifle.

The Hamr has alway been interesting to me.

 

[robtattoo]

RAB-AD Mini

getstern.com

2oz & I could carry my rifle in my pocket*



*I mean, not really. Still though... ...

 

[SLG]

Any factory loads for the 77 tmk, or handloading only? I have not looked at that big thread in detail...does the bullet penetrate reliably, or are people looking for Berger like fragmentation? I prefer deep penetration.

 

[fishdart]

Any factory loads for the 77 tmk, or handloading only? I have not looked at that big thread in detail...does the bullet penetrate reliably, or are people looking for Berger like fragmentation? I prefer deep penetration.

Palmetto State Armory loads it in their AAC lineup. It is specified as 5.56NATO, not .223

I bought a few boxes but haven't tried it out yet.

 

[robtattoo]

AAC, Black Hills & a couple of others. You really need to read the thread, but 77 TMKS generally penetrate 12-16" & go off like a freaking grenade. Multiple moose, lots of elk & hundreds of deer & hogs are detailed in the thread, including many long range kills (600yds+) with full autopsy photos.

I've been a .223/5.56 fan for years with 65gr bullets but the 77gr TMK really transformed it in my mind. Having seen firsthand what the little bugger does inside multiple deer & pigs, I'll never grab anything else again, unless prohibited by law (WY minimum is .24 for elk)

 

[StupidLightweight]

RAB-AD Mini

getstern.com

Robtattoo, I have one of the RAB-AD Minis. Cool unit. Not as solid as a fixed unit or quality folder, but should work great for a lightweight AR.

 

[ChrisAU]

RAB-AD Mini

getstern.com

2oz & I could carry my rifle in my pocket*



*I mean, not really. Still though... ...

The IMI stock folds and is only 6.5 oz total...

Edit: And is much cheaper than that

Edit 2: And you also eliminate the need for a buffer nut & plate

 

[robtattoo]

The IMI stock folds and is only 6.5 oz total...

Edit: And is much cheaper than that

Edit 2: And you also eliminate the need for a buffer nut & plate

And they keep pulling me back in.....
A-Googling we go. Again.

 

[SLG]

AAC, Black Hills & a couple of others. You really need to read the thread, but 77 TMKS generally penetrate 12-16" & go off like a freaking grenade. Multiple moose, lots of elk & hundreds of deer & hogs are detailed in the thread, including many long range kills (600yds+) with full autopsy photos.

I've been a .223/5.56 fan for years with 65gr bullets but the 77gr TMK really transformed it in my mind. Having seen firsthand what the little bugger does inside multiple deer & pigs, I'll never grab anything else again, unless prohibited by law (WY minimum is .24 for elk)

I've always liked TSX or TTSX bullets, and would assume the 70g tsx would do well, but I have not tried it. I'll pick up some 77 tmk and see how it does.

 

[robtattoo]

Nooooope.
Monos suck all flavors of ass. Heavy for caliber monos suck it in every color too.

69 or 77 TMKs, 73gr Eld-Ms. All loaded to 2.260" (AR mag length) outperform them in every aspect.

 

[SLG]

Nooooope.
Monos suck all flavors of ass. Heavy for caliber monos suck it in every color too.

69 or 77 TMKs, 73gr Eld-Ms. All loaded to 2.260" (AR mag length) outperform them in every aspect.

That's an interesting take given the extreme success my friends and I have had with sucky monos. We do prefer lighter for caliber monos though.

 

[StupidLightweight]

Allow me to rephrase what Robtattoo meant. Monos do what they're designed to do, which is penetrate, maintain their weight, and kill animals. Unfortunately, they don't dump all their energy, so the kills are often not quick. The faster you push them, the more hydrostatic shock is achieved. But they often produce a small wound channel.

This is where the match bullets come in. Match bullets like those listed above penetrate deeply enough and then grenade the vitals, which nearly always results in faster deaths. When correct shot placement is achieved, even the .223 with bullets like the 77-gr. TMK will outperform the biggest magnums with mono-metal bullets if fast kills are the goal. And as a bonus, they do this with a fraction of the recoil.

 

[robtattoo]

Allow me to rephrase what Robtattoo meant. Monos do what they're designed to do, which is penetrate, maintain their weight, and kill animals. Unfortunately, they don't dump all their energy, so the kills are often not quick. The faster you push them, the more hydrostatic shock is achieved. But they often produce a small wound channel.

This is where the match bullets come in. Match bullets like those listed above penetrate deeply enough and then grenade the vitals, which nearly always results in faster deaths. When correct shot placement is achieved, even the .223 with bullets like the 77-gr. TMK will outperform the biggest magnums with mono-metal bullets if fast kills are the goal. And as a bonus, they do this with a fraction of the recoil.

Yeah. That.

 

[JBradley500]

And you can carry ten 77 grain TMKs like it's nothing!

 

[SLG]

Allow me to rephrase what Robtattoo meant. Monos do what they're designed to do, which is penetrate, maintain their weight, and kill animals. Unfortunately, they don't dump all their energy, so the kills are often not quick. The faster you push them, the more hydrostatic shock is achieved. But they often produce a small wound channel.

This is where the match bullets come in. Match bullets like those listed above penetrate deeply enough and then grenade the vitals, which nearly always results in faster deaths. When correct shot placement is achieved, even the .223 with bullets like the 77-gr. TMK will outperform the biggest magnums with mono-metal bullets if fast kills are the goal. And as a bonus, they do this with a fraction of the recoil.

I actually did know what he meant, but I didn't want to let him off that easily, sorry
I know none of you guys know me but part of my job for the past 25 years or so has involved ballistics, so I'm pretty familiar with the different schools of thought. I do not keep up with every bullet made these days, so I am not up on the TMK. My/our experience with terminal ballistics is that penetration is king. Explosive expansion can certainly contribute to a fast stop, but it has to penetrate first. Shot placement trumps bullet design everytime, as long as the bullet can penetrate far enough to matter. The idea of "dumping energy" into a body is not a widely held belief anymore, and while I don't subscribe to that theory, I certainly understand that there is a lot about terminal ballistics that we simply can't fully explain yet.

I tend to fall on the "hold together and penetrate like crazy" side of the argument. Of course, shooting a North American ungulate broadside just doesn't require all that much if you don't take shoulder shots. Either way, I'll still grab some TMK and see how she does, as my bolt AR is almost done.

 

[StupidLightweight]

Either way, I'll still grab some TMK and see how she does, as my bolt AR is almost done.

You will be impressed. I've spoken with Jeff Hoffman at Black Hills Ammo about the 77-grain TMK's performance. It's that good. Check out this gel block simulating a 400-yard impact from a 14.5-inch barrel. There's a reason this bullet has converted so many hunters to the dark side.

 

[SLG]

I would expect good penetration at 400 as it has likely dropped below its explosive threshold, but the pic makes it look like maybe it hasn't? I can't tell if it stopped at 10.5 or continued. My resolution here is not very good, sorry.