Truth in Numbers?

[Ryan Avery]

I've been out hunting for the last month so I'm a little late on this. But I find it interesting that someone can claim twice as breathable while being 7,000 off and both competitors being better??? Kuiu makes great clothing. Why fudge the numbers?

Verified

 

[tipsntails7]

I've been out hunting for the last month so I'm a little late on this. But I find it interesting that someone can claim twice as breathable while being 7,000 off and both competitors being better??? Kuiu makes great clothing. Why fudge the numbers?

Verified

Ryan, doesn't it matter when the piece is tested? I thought Aron talked about something similar happening to kryptek, after the camo pattern was applied to the jacket. It could also be just the specs of the membrane itself.

I appreciate FL doing it like they did. I wish there was a standard that the industry agreed to adopt so we new these stated numbers were actual finished garment performance.


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[Ryan Avery]

I think it does matter, I think they tested finished products.

I also wish there was a standardized test.

I guess the only issue I have is when they claim "twice as breathable"

I'm not trying to start shit either. The Kuiu Attack pants are still the best pants I've ever worn.

I just like the truth!

 

[JP100]

Ive been trying to get some numbers to compare jackets.
And every manufacturer has stated how different the tests are and how you cant compare brands that way.
Some are testing the basic fabric before it has color put on and is made into the garment, some are testing the finished article, some are not even testing at all.

Would be great to see a independent test across alot of brands or some form of industry testing standard.

 

[tipsntails7]

I think it does matter, I think they tested finished products.

I also wish there was a standardized test.

I guess the only issue I have is when they claim "twice as breathable"

I'm not trying to start shit either. The Kuiu Attack pants are still the best pants I've ever worn.

I just like the truth!

Agreed, I appreciate First Lites transparency.

I'm surprised gores came out so well. I like a lot of the jackets that have gore because they are extremely durable but wearing them compared to
The old FL they never felt as breathable as the stormtight.


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[MT_Wyatt]

I think it does matter, I think they tested finished products.

I also wish there was a standardized test.

I guess the only issue I have is when they claim "twice as breathable"

I'm not trying to start shit either. The Kuiu Attack pants are still the best pants I've ever worn.

I just like the truth!

For sure. I don't think it's a big deal or starting shit pointing out real testing results. My guess is the Kuiu add is claiming 40k on breathability for the Membrane alone. Put it in a garment and it loses effectiveness. I think that deceitful practice fits into their overinflated marketing language, although I still love their clothing and gear.


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[Beendare]

I'm skeptical of some of these tests. I've seen enough of them to know a guy can devise a test to make their stuff look better.

So I'm assuming they are blowing molecules under pressure through the fabric. When does that ever happen in real life? [Though sometimes I feel like I'm blowing off sweat in the mtns- grin] Does the fact its under pressure skew the testing? Maybe, maybe not.

There is no doubt the Ibex dries a little faster than the Kuiu merino blend....I've worn it. But the Kuiu is a tighter weave and it holds up a lot better. So when you talk "Performance"....there are a lot of factors to consider. Do you buy a compound solely due to its IBO speed rating? But then it has a horrible draw cycle and is loud as hell.....lots of factors.

 

[tipsntails7]

I'm skeptical of some of these tests. I've seen enough of them to know a guy can devise a test to make their stuff look better.

So I'm assuming they are blowing molecules under pressure through the fabric. When does that ever happen in real life? [Though sometimes I feel like I'm blowing off sweat in the mtns- grin] Does the fact its under pressure skew the testing? Maybe, maybe not.

There is no doubt the Ibex dries a little faster than the Kuiu merino blend....I've worn it. But the Kuiu is a tighter weave and it holds up a lot better. So when you talk "Performance"....there are a lot of factors to consider. Do you buy a compound solely due to its IBO speed rating? But then it has a horrible draw cycle and is loud as hell.....lots of factors.

Been I think it's just another piece in the puzzle of making a decision. You and I both know some guys buy bows solely off speed no matter what. To long a draw, super light arrows just to see the chrono light up, I would never do that, just like I wouldn't buy rain gear or base layers off one test.

Independent lab testing of products is great for comparisons on paper, but real world use will always be better.



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[maninthemaze]

I'm sure Kuiu makes great clothes, I personally don't own any of them. I do own a pack that I purchased used.

However, I personally won't purchase anything made by Kuiu as long as Jason Hairston keeps hanging out with Don Peay and the SFW. This is just my opinion and my way of protesting a company who's values I don't agree with. I'll be purchasing SKRE clothing after the first of the year.

I guess my point is, everyone has their own reasons for picking where and what they purchase. Unfortunately there really isn't a way to remove the hype from advertising schemes. And an individual testing equipment with an unbiased opinion is usually the best. What we need is some sort of underwriters laboratory.

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[Buckman]

I think it does matter, I think they tested finished products.

I also wish there was a standardized test.

I guess the only issue I have is when they claim "twice as breathable"

I'm not trying to start shit either. The Kuiu Attack pants are still the best pants I've ever worn.

I just like the truth!

THE TRUTH, THE TRUTH, YOU CANN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!! Sorry couldn't resist

 

[5MilesBack]

We recently sent our SEAK 3.5 Layer Rain Jacket to Vartest, the industry standard in unbiased, third party testing in order to see how First Lite's burliest rain gear stacked up against the competition. As you can see, First Lite sits on top when it comes to moisture transfer rate, the metric used to measure how quickly a fabric moves moisture from the inside to the outside.

I copied the above quote from that article. I have always wondered how a specific layer is supposed to be waterproof, but then somehow also allows moisture to go through from the inside. Is it possible to make a fabric that can do both?

 

[tipsntails7]

I copied the above quote from that article. I have always wondered how a specific layer is supposed to be waterproof, but then somehow also allows moisture to go through from the inside. Is it possible to make a fabric that can do both?

It's waterproof up to a point. It's not pvc raingear though.

Vapor molecules are smaller than water droplets, so it passes through holes in the membrane that water is to big to get through.
That's the jist of it. Im sure there is technically more to it.



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[Obi-wanshinobi]

Independent lab testing of products is great for comparisons on paper, but real world use will always be better.



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This.
If a product doesn't perform up to the claims then I will drop it and replace it with something else.
Those rain jackets all perform so close that it usually comes down to fit as the difference maker for me.

 

[doverpack12]

Ive been trying to get some numbers to compare jackets.
And every manufacturer has stated how different the tests are and how you cant compare brands that way.
Some are testing the basic fabric before it has color put on and is made into the garment, some are testing the finished article, some are not even testing at all.

Would be great to see a independent test across alot of brands or some form of industry testing standard.

I also think we need an independent test. KUIU pays for the test they are on top, first lite pays for it they are on top. I also think we need to know if 37.5 and toray have different qualities and grades of membrane like gore does. The Sitka jacket tested could have a higher grade membrane because it is a more expensive piece then their lower priced rain jacket. I understand there are other feature differences as well but I think you have to be extra careful buying gore products so you know what you are getting. As consumers I think first lite and KUIU should let us know if they have or use different grades as well

 

[tipsntails7]

I also think we need an independent test. KUIU pays for the test they are on top, first lite pays for it they are on top. I also think we need to know if 37.5 and toray have different qualities and grades of membrane like gore does. The Sitka jacket tested could have a higher grade membrane because it is a more expensive piece then their lower priced rain jacket. I understand there are other feature differences as well but I think you have to be extra careful buying gore products so you know what you are getting. As consumers I think first lite and KUIU should let us know if they have or use different grades as well

That's a good point. I believe kuiu does that as they say it is the derzimex NX membrane in both the Yukon and the Chugach. I know Toray makes different membranes as well.

Gore used to be notorious for that, but I believe has gotten better distinguishing between their membrane levels.


Edit:
Toray makes two different membranes, but has 4or 5 variations of each. I couldn't find anything about 37.5 except they make a 2.5 and a 3.5 layer shell.

Dermizax(R) | Products | ALL ABOUT SPORTS FABRICS | TORAY

Entrant(R) | Products | ALL ABOUT SPORTS FABRICS | TORAY





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[Beendare]

Its tough for us as consumers when there are so many choices and such a huge variations in price points.

I saw a "Test" by the company- without naming them- lets call them Streams East...that showed their stuff was great. I guided a guy on an all day pouring rain hog hunt and by the end of the day his rain jack weighed 10 pounds...it was soaked. I've seen guys on forums sing the praises of this stuff...and I snicker.

A couple decades ago, I owned multiple rain shells by a very well known company that made high dollar rain gear. They worked great for a couple hours...and then leaked and didn't let out moisture. This stuff had test after glowing test...but it was no where close to the claims in my experience.

IMO, A guy has to factor in what his intended use for the product is; So if its a rain shell for a 2 hour squall....just about anything will work. If you are talking coastal Alaska...thats another requirement entirely. I used that $39 space Rain when it first came out for my high country Co archery hunts and it was great for those afternoon monsoons...but it sucked for those rare occasions when we got 2 straight days of rain.

The best I've used is the Kuiu and an REI eVent rain shells for all around use. Very good cheaper stuff is the Marmot PreCip. Note; These shells need a regular refresh of the DWR outer coating to work properly. So when you are dragging through wet brush in SE Alaska for a week you WILL notice it being less effective as the brush plays hell wetting out the outside fabric. In those heavy rain/ wet brush cases, that HH Impertech PVC stuff is about the only thing that will keep you dry.

Of course, YMMV

 

[tipsntails7]

Its tough for us as consumers when there are so many choices and such a huge variations in price points.

I saw a "Test" by the company- without naming them- lets call them Streams East...that showed their stuff was great. I guided a guy on an all day pouring rain hog hunt and by the end of the day his rain jack weighed 10 pounds...it was soaked. I've seen guys on forums sing the praises of this stuff...and I snicker.

A couple decades ago, I owned multiple rain shells by a very well known company that made high dollar rain gear. They worked great for a couple hours...and then leaked and didn't let out moisture. This stuff had test after glowing test...but it was no where close to the claims in my experience.

IMO, A guy has to factor in what his intended use for the product is; So if its a rain shell for a 2 hour squall....just about anything will work. If you are talking coastal Alaska...thats another requirement entirely. I used that $39 space Rain when it first came out for my high country Co archery hunts and it was great for those afternoon monsoons...but it sucked for those rare occasions when we got 2 straight days of rain.

The best I've used is the Kuiu and an REI eVent rain shells for all around use. Very good cheaper stuff is the Marmot PreCip. Note; These shells need a regular refresh of the DWR outer coating to work properly. So when you are dragging through wet brush in SE Alaska for a week you WILL notice it being less effective as the brush plays hell wetting out the outside fabric. In those heavy rain/ wet brush cases, that HH Impertech PVC stuff is about the only thing that will keep you dry.

Of course, YMMV

Rivers west, that's stuff is the cats ass, till you actually use it.


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[First Lite]

I also think we need an independent test. KUIU pays for the test they are on top, first lite pays for it they are on top. I also think we need to know if 37.5 and toray have different qualities and grades of membrane like gore does. The Sitka jacket tested could have a higher grade membrane because it is a more expensive piece then their lower priced rain jacket. I understand there are other feature differences as well but I think you have to be extra careful buying gore products so you know what you are getting. As consumers I think first lite and KUIU should let us know if they have or use different grades as well

To set the record straight, this was an independent test. Vartest is known throughout the industry as the premier testing facility in the country. If they fudged the test at all they would be out of business. All three jackets were purchased new and sent to Vartest. The vast majority of companies use the same test to determine breathability,JIS 1099-b. That being said there can be variance from facility to facility. I would liken it to a dynometer that measures horsepower and torque in automobiles. Some dynos are just a little more "stingy" than others, meaning the numbers might be lower than advertised and others are generous. But regardless of results, to test on the same dyno would determine how the various vehicles stacked up against each other. What started this exercise was when a competitor advertised that their product was twice as breathable as the next competitor. Regardless of tested numbers this ratio is pretty easy to figure out. It would be as if Dodge, not to pick on Dodges Ryan, claimed that their new Cummins had 1800 lb-ft of torque when in reality they had about 15% less than Ford and Chevy. Im pretty confident that Ford and/or Chevy would pay for a third party test. While not a lot of people buy a pick up solely for its hp/tq numbers as there many other factors determining why you make a purchase, accurate numbers always benefit the consumer.

 

[belly-deep]

Companies have been trying to say their products are better than the competitors since the dawn of free markets. Nothing new here folks.

 

[Gr8bawana]

Truth in numbers?
The only numbers these companies that sell all this overpriced made in china stuff care about is the number of dollars they can make.
I'm sure many of you will disagree with me but this is just the opinion of someone who doesn't need or want to have all the latest and greatest stuff that is hyped up on the tv hunting shows.