The “mobile hunting” push, vs. the lack of LW/packable whitetail clothing and equipment?

[Conrad101st]

Great point. For whatever reason, a lot of the eastern white-tail states want you to bring an entire carcass in for inspection so you would have to literally load the entire deer into a pack instead of parting it out. One of the WMAs near me said I could cut into as many pieces as I wanted, but every piece minus guts had to come in for inspection and weigh-in.

That seems bizarre. What if you eat the back straps at camp? Or split the meat up between the group and head your separate ways. In Oklahoma we just check via the application at and notate the gender and points per side.

 

[PBBananaHammock]

Whitetail live in a half square mile home range. So I’m not risking life and limb leaving a layer at home if my batteries stop working. I’ll just go home.

This right here is key. Nobody’s risking life and limb for whitetail (short of falling out of a tree), and if things go south you can just walk out with minimal effort. Due to this fact, it’s so much easier to just make due with solutions that come close to working well, because if they fail, just go home. Clothing that a lot of guys already have like carhart or dickies are already designed for semi static use with minimal bulk and high durability. Not the best but they definitely work for most people.

While western hunting has the legit “safety” connotation that you can die in the wilderness if your gear fails. That is a psychological component that pushes people to spend more money than they likely should on mountain hunting gear that just isn’t as driving of a force on white tail purchases. Hence why I say, I just don’t know if the money will be there compared to other areas that could be lucrative for an investor for such a niche.

 

[woods89]

I think the OP is asking some pretty valid questions. It may not be so many of us, but I've packed in spike camps to hunt both whitetails and turkeys, in some pretty rough areas here in the Midwest. My furthest whitetail packout is 3 miles, so not all of us are hunting the backyard. While its true that densities are low, big deer (relatively) do exist, and the challenge is the reward.

Like I said, I've used my western hunting gear with some success. I find that with a rifle it works fairly well, but the noise issue is probably it's biggest Achilles heel. I also find I struggle more with getting cold hunting whitetails in winter that when we glass for elk in November in Colorado. Maybe it's humidity related?

I've wondered if a puffy set with a merino blend or light fleece outer face would be a winner, but I'm not sure just how deep the market is.

 

[AlabamaMountainMan]

That seems bizarre. What if you eat the back straps at camp? Or split the meat up between the group and head your separate ways. In Oklahoma we just check via the application at and notate the gender and points per side.

Depending on where you are, that would be illegal. Where I live, it’s usually WMA vs National Forest. WMAs have to check the entire animal before you can do anything. Most will let you gut them though. On the National Forest, you can quarter them or whatever you want. You could I guess even eat it right then and there as long as you submit your harvest information on the state app. At the WMA, you would have to take to the check station before you leave (but only on certain days).

I agree. It is super weird and annoying. I tend to prefer NF over WMA due to some of the regs on the WMAs unless I win draw hunts.

 

[7RemMag]

I find that with a rifle it works fairly well, but the noise issue is probably its biggest Achilles heel. I also find I struggle more with getting cold hunting whitetails in winter that when we glass for elk in November in Colorado. Maybe it's humidity related?

I've wondered if a puffy set with a merino blend or light fleece outer face would be a winner, but I'm not sure just how deep the market is.

To specifically address your noise/cold weather issue, perhaps look into the Kryptek Njord line. Very warm and very quiet in my experience

 

[Macintosh]

It sounds like you know how to solve this problem better than the thousands of folks who do it for a living.

I highly doubt that. Its a business, and I dont have data to show what is selling and what isn't, so yes I am confident it can be done, but Im also armchair-quarterbacking what *should* be done. Im not in the position of having to buy a production run of $$$ clothing and have to sell it, and having to put limited resources into the most profitable items b/c they cant do everything. Im certain those folks doing it now could go in this direction if it made sense—and some might even want to—but if the numbers arent there it doesnt make sense (at least for those companies), regardless of whats possible. Its why I posted, hoping to get a picture of just how much of a niche it really is, and what sort of compromises people might or might not be willing to make in order to get it. If I value weight and bulk a bit more than being super-quiet, thats very different than you not willing to make an incremental weight/bulk improvement if that means sacrificing quietness at all. Given the replies to this thread I suspect “most” wt hunters would side with you on that, and that’s probably the bulk of the reason right there.

 

[plebe]

This right here is key. Nobody’s risking life and limb for whitetail (short of falling out of a tree), and if things go south you can just walk out with minimal effort. Due to this fact, it’s so much easier to just make due with solutions that come close to working well, because if they fail, just go home. Clothing that a lot of guys already have like carhart or dickies are already designed for semi static use with minimal bulk and high durability. Not the best but they definitely work for most people.

While western hunting has the legit “safety” connotation that you can die in the wilderness if your gear fails. That is a psychological component that pushes people to spend more money than they likely should on mountain hunting gear that just isn’t as driving of a force on white tail purchases. Hence why I say, I just don’t know if the money will be there compared to other areas that could be lucrative for an investor for such a niche.

Larry Benoit, a pretty famous deer tracker you may have heard of, nearly froze to death when a storm set upon him. Spent the night against a tree trying to stay with it, as I recall. He left his biggest buck ever in an attempt to get out of the woods, and with a search group couldn’t locate the buck the following day after the storm passed.

There’s some eastern whitetail hunters hunting more remotely than many western hunters. It’s not a big number of course.

But when it comes to clothes at the top end of Western vs Whitetail kit, they are pretty similar in certain respects, with much of the difference boiling down to the layering dynamics. Anyway, Sitka has sold a boat load of Fanatic and Incinerator garments and those aren’t cheap. I’m not sure what the ideal Western clothing arrangement is for the deep woods Eastern whitetailer, but there’s clearly a market for warm, quiet, deer hunting cloths and a premium to be had. Folks are buying this stuff and hunting in stands 50 yds from their house.

 

[Lowg08]

Larry Benoit, a pretty famous deer tracker you may have heard of, nearly froze to death when a storm set upon him. Spent the night against a tree trying to stay with it, as I recall. He left his biggest buck ever in an attempt to get out of the woods, and with a search group couldn’t locate the buck the following day after the storm passed.

There’s some eastern whitetail hunters hunting more remotely than many western hunters. It’s not a big number of course.

But when it comes to cloths at the top end of Western vs Whitetail kit, they are pretty similar in certain respects, with much of the difference boiling down to the layering dynamics. Anyway, Sitka has sold a boat load of Fanatic and Incinerator garments and those aren’t cheap. I’m not sure what the ideal Western clothing arrangement is for the deep woods Eastern whitetailer, but there’s clearly a market for warm, quiet, deer hunting cloths and a premium to be had. Folks are buying this stuff and hunting in stands 50 yds from their house.

Hunting more remote has become more of an Eastern thing since the popularity of public land fad. Of course this fad pretty much has everyone beating down the woods within a mile or less of the truck. It’s also turned the notion of its public I can do what ever I want into a while different topic of course. No reapect, no ethical sense of sharing just its public I’m untitled. I digress. That’s for another day. The deer are learning this too so the niche may not be such a niche in a few years after the weekend YouTube warriors acclimate them. The deer will go deeper and the lazy and weak will give up. You might see more changes then.

 

[Swamp Fox]

^^^

I think Post 86 from MacIntosh is a good summary. As a Southern bowhunter (primarily) who hunts through December in high humidity, quietness is Number One for me, warmth second, weight third, and bulk fourth.

I'll swap quietness for warmth if set up for longer shots with a rifle, but if there's a chance that a deer is coming within 50 yards of me, we're back to Quiet even if I could cut a buck the Evil Eye and have him fall over dead as a stone.

My deer are wound tight! Quiet is non-negotiable.

I hate that I sometimes look and feel like a D-Day paratrooper going in to set up some days, but you do what you gotta do. Ninety to ninety-five percent of my whitetail hunting is an ambush game, with plans set ahead of time, and you can mitigate weight and bulk concerns by planning and prepping ahead.

I believe this is prolly true of most whitetail hunters, and may explain the lack of effort towards true mobile utility for WT.

 

[plebe]

So the jacket is 3lbs - comparable to what I currently use in conjunction with the old Sitka bibs in 20* plus.

You’re saying you’re able to be comfortable in 5-10* weather for several hours in the incinerator jacket?

I don’t break out the stand hunter set until it’s going to be below 20 all day. And honestly, it’s annoying compared to hunting in 60 and bringing no clothes. But has never stopped me from doing things the way I do and killing. If I could cut the weight and bulk of that in half, I’d pay for it, provided it’s as quiet.

It doesn’t sound like there’s that combination but maybe I’m not understanding.

My 40-20* combo weighs about 7-8lbs and packs inside my frame. I’m up to about 12-13lbs to sit in teens and single digits all day (not counting under garments thay are same for both).

Sub 8lbs for full body insulation to sit in 10* weather that I can draw my bow in and not get busted, and packs to less than 12x18x2 (in whatever orientation thay makes sense I don’t care as long as it’s inside my frame) - I will pay for this.

42.5oz is 2.65lbs according to my calculator. But they probably weigh an XS or something like that. 3lbs sounds about right. But I haven’t had the Aerolite edition. That might be lighter; I hear it’s not quite as warm, more on par with the Fanatic, but I can’t vouch for that.

I’m currently using the old Fanatic jacket with Incinerator bibs when it’s really cold. Although it’s a bulkier coat, it offers the integral hand muff which is one less thing for me to pack since I don’t find warm gloves very functional while hunting. Yes, I’ve managed in 5-10deg with that combo lots of times, I’m in the NE. It’s not in the lodge by the fire comfortable. But feet and hands suffer more than the rest of me on a day like that. I’m not particularly prone to chill, so I guess it’s about how hot you run.

 

[KyleR1985]

I highly doubt that. Its a business, and I dont have data to show what is selling and what isn't, so yes I am confident it can be done, but Im also armchair-quarterbacking what *should* be done. Im not in the position of having to buy a production run of $$$ clothing and have to sell it, and having to put limited resources into the most profitable items b/c they cant do everything. Im certain those folks doing it now could go in this direction if it made sense—and some might even want to—but if the numbers arent there it doesnt make sense (at least for those companies), regardless of whats possible. Its why I posted, hoping to get a picture of just how much of a niche it really is, and what sort of compromises people might or might not be willing to make in order to get it. If I value weight and bulk a bit more than being super-quiet, thats very different than you not willing to make an incremental weight/bulk improvement if that means sacrificing quietness at all. Given the replies to this thread I suspect “most” wt hunters would side with you on that, and that’s probably the bulk of the reason right there.

I think it is. I have endless options to shoot a deer 100 yards away with a rifle, or if the wind is blowing 25mph.

Having to draw a bow in cold still conditions changes everything in this context.

It’s not every hunt. But it’s enough of them for me to not be willing to buy weight/bulk reduction if it sacrifices quietness.


I’m extremely happy with the gear I have on this front. But I did buy some primaloft, and some fabric to build a garment specific to the way I hunt. Again - project on back burner. It won’t be any less bulky than what I use now, but should end up being a little lighter. And easier to put on after I’m in a tree.

 

[Maverick1]

The Aerolite Incinerator jacket is listed at 42.5oz. I read the Standhunter is like 11lbs.

Anyway, you’d have to do a comparison to get that type of granularity. I’ll just say then that in my estimation it’s significantly lighter and much less bulky than Cabelas Stand Hunter coveralls, warm enough for me in the conditions you describe, and similar to Rivers West rain gear for membrane noise.

The Cabelas insulation is: 150-gram Thinsulate Platinum insulation throughout, with 200 grams surrounding your core, 300 grams down your spine and kidneys and 500-gram insulation on the seat to ensure you’re warm no matter what it’s like outside. Plus burber.

Maybe you need all that. Idk. @Maverick1 sold a Cabelas set, maybe he can give a specific comparison if he’s used the Sitka jacket. I know he’s tried some of their outerwear pieces.

@plebe , @KyleR1985 - I have tried a bunch of different garments over the years from a variety of manufacturers. Currently own 13 sets of "whitetail" jacket and bib combinations, or coveralls.

I will answer the question you posed regarding the weight of the Stand Hunter Extreme coveralls: they are 9.32 pounds for the coveralls in size large. (I used to own the Cabelas Stand Hunter Extreme jacket and bibs but sold them before I was able to weight the set. They were likely heavier, I'd guess in the 10.5-11 pound range for the jacket and bibs.)

Below are some weights and ratings for the 13 sets of garments I currently own. (Outer layers only; not including any sort of base or insulating layers. For each of the 13 layers below, I have a corresponding variety of base layers and insulating layers. They are all kept in zip up carrying bags: just grab the bag and go. And, yes, I have spent quite a bit on hunting clothing! OK, a ridiculous amount. This is only for deer hunting, and nothing for my warm weather elk hunting adventures. LOL.)



I am not certain if @Macintosh knows what happened to his thread anymore. Seems to have veered tangentially off his intended course.

 

[KyleR1985]

@plebe , @KyleR1985 - I have tried a bunch of different garments over the years from a variety of manufacturers. Currently own 13 sets of "whitetail" jacket and bib combinations, or coveralls.

I will answer the question you posed regarding the weight of the Stand Hunter Extreme coveralls: they are 9.32 pounds for the coveralls in size large. (I used to own the Cabelas Stand Hunter Extreme jacket and bibs but sold them before I was able to weight the set. They were likely heavier, I'd guess in the 10.5-11 pound range for the jacket and bibs.)

Below are some weights and ratings for the 13 sets of garments I currently own. (Outer layers only; not including any sort of base or insulating layers. For each of the 13 layers below, I have a corresponding variety of base layers and insulating layers. They are all kept in zip up carrying bags: just grab the bag and go. And, yes, I have spent quite a bit on hunting clothing! OK, a ridiculous amount. This is only for deer hunting, and nothing for my warm weather elk hunting adventures. LOL.)

View attachment 869575

I am not certain if @Macintosh knows what happened to his thread anymore. Seems to have veered tangentially off his intended course.

Whoa.


A helpful category, since this is completely static use of the gear (sitting still for hours at a time), would be “what temperature you’re able to use this gear and sit still/be warm for 4 hours”.

“warmth” as a category isn’t really useful, besides to compare the garments to each other. That is very useful generally because most People won’t spend a car’s worth of money on clothes. So we appreciate you for that.


I’d disagree with your assessment of quiet for the stand hunter suit too. It’s dead quiet.

I killed this deer wearing it, at about 7 steps, from the ground. I drew my bow with it about 12-15 steps away when I realized it was going to walk right to me. It was cold that evening…



I wore the Sitka bibs I have, heavy base layers, a mid layer, the Sitka shacket, all under the cabelas stand hunter on that hunt. I walked from about 730 am until about 11am scouting. Ate a sandwich when I found the spot and set up at noon. Killed the deer right at end of legal shooting light, it was right around 4*. Even with all those clothes I wasn’t “warm”, but I was able to sit still long enough for that buck to come in range.

Then a two mile hike out.


He stayed in the woods that night haha. Packed him next morning.

 

[timekiller13]

You can find all the lightweight, technical clothing you need for hunting whitetail at your local Walmart or Academy. It’s all made in China, even the “high end” stuff.

I’ve got a couple sets of Academy brand pants and shirts (Magellan or whatever they are called). They work just fine. Used them for elk out west and deer here in NC. 1/3 price of Kuiu/first lite etc.

 

[Sizthediz]

You can find all the lightweight, technical clothing you need for hunting whitetail at your local Walmart or Academy. It’s all made in China, even the “high end” stuff.

I’ve got a couple sets of Academy brand pants and shirts (Magellan or whatever they are called). They work just fine. Used them for elk out west and deer here in NC. 1/3 price of Kuiu/first lite etc.

Problem with some of these fabrics(my experience with academy)is they glow. Priced right though

 

[JCMCUBIC]

In regard to the original idea, I think it's true that there isn't a massive drive in marketing towards lightweight whitetail clothing. That said, Kuiu's Super Down Haven mentions it. I have not used or handled the Super Down Haven.

"As the first of its kind, the Super Down Haven combines an innovative down-proof, windproof, and ultra-quiet knit fleece with our legendary Quixdown insulation, making it the warmest and lightest late-season whitetail hunting jacket on the market. Down insulation provides unmatched warmth-to-weight ratio, but it was previousely unsuitable for whitetail hunting due to the loud fabrics—until now."

Bibs weight: 2 lb 11.6 oz

Super Down Haven Bib | Valo

Our Super Down Haven Warm & Quiet Hunting Bib in Valo is the industry’s warmest whitetail bib, plus it's windproof & water resistant. Get it online from KUIU.

www.kuiu.com

Jacket weight: 2 lb 7.9 oz

Super Down Haven Hooded Jacket | Valo

KUIU's Super Down Haven Hooded Warm & Quiet Hunting Jacket in Valo Camo is the industry’s warmest whitetail jacket, plus it's windproof & water resistant.

www.kuiu.com

Oddly enough, their Proximity set is lighter, but I don't think any mention is made to that in the description...though I may have missed it. I used the Proximity set on all cold days last season, some in lower teens with high winds. I used a puffy under the jacket along with normal base/mid layers. I was impressed with it for cold weather sits.

Proximity pants (not bibs) weight: 2 lb 3.2 oz

KUIU Proximity Insulated Pant | Valo

Proximity Insulated Hunting Pant are engineered as an ultra-quiet system for cold weather hunts and built for close encounters. Available in Valo Camo.

www.kuiu.com

Proximity jacket weight: 2 lb

KUIU Proximity Hooded Insulated Jacket | Valo

Remain undetected during close-encounter situations in warm and cold-weather conditions with the Proximity Hooded Insulated Jacket. Available in Valo Camo.

www.kuiu.com

I noticed some folks mentioned compression/stuff sacks. I usually use them when packing a lightweight lock-on (LW .5 or Retrograde) for hikes in. It's an easy way to compress, reduce bulk, and make a weight that's easy to attach to the stand with no snagging or load shift. I've attached them loose as well but prefer the compression sack.

Related to carrying layers in, near the end of last season I used an Eberlestock Vapor 2500 attached to the stand. It worked very well with the straps/buckles that come on it. I need to use it a fair bit more but it will probably be what I use next year.

 

[WCB]

@WCB you have entirely misunderstood the posts you quoted. I appreciate the time you took to answer, but youre reacting to a different question than what Im asking.

Literally reacted to your exact questions. Because stand and stick companies market something doesn't mean the clothing/gear companies are going to market on the same topic. Also pointed out that some of the whitetail specific high end products are marketed as less bulky and light weight with superior cold weather performance than standard items. Another poster mentioned the same thing about KUIU whitetail specific clothing.

You want to be sold on marketing not actual already available equipment and performance.

Also, to wrap it up with a bow...it is a very niche market in the whitetail world.

 

[PBBananaHammock]

In regard to the original idea, I think it's true that there isn't a massive drive in marketing towards lightweight whitetail clothing. That said, Kuiu's Super Down Haven mentions it. I have not used or handled the Super Down Haven.

"As the first of its kind, the Super Down Haven combines an innovative down-proof, windproof, and ultra-quiet knit fleece with our legendary Quixdown insulation, making it the warmest and lightest late-season whitetail hunting jacket on the market. Down insulation provides unmatched warmth-to-weight ratio, but it was previousely unsuitable for whitetail hunting due to the loud fabrics—until now."

Bibs weight: 2 lb 11.6 oz

Super Down Haven Bib | Valo

Our Super Down Haven Warm & Quiet Hunting Bib in Valo is the industry’s warmest whitetail bib, plus it's windproof & water resistant. Get it online from KUIU.

www.kuiu.com

Jacket weight: 2 lb 7.9 oz

Super Down Haven Hooded Jacket | Valo

KUIU's Super Down Haven Hooded Warm & Quiet Hunting Jacket in Valo Camo is the industry’s warmest whitetail jacket, plus it's windproof & water resistant.

www.kuiu.com

Oddly enough, their Proximity set is lighter, but I don't think any mention is made to that in the description...though I may have missed it. I used the Proximity set on all cold days last season, some in lower teens with high winds. I used a puffy under the jacket along with normal base/mid layers. I was impressed with it for cold weather sits.

Proximity pants (not bibs) weight: 2 lb 3.2 oz

KUIU Proximity Insulated Pant | Valo

Proximity Insulated Hunting Pant are engineered as an ultra-quiet system for cold weather hunts and built for close encounters. Available in Valo Camo.

www.kuiu.com

Proximity jacket weight: 2 lb

KUIU Proximity Hooded Insulated Jacket | Valo

Remain undetected during close-encounter situations in warm and cold-weather conditions with the Proximity Hooded Insulated Jacket. Available in Valo Camo.

www.kuiu.com

I noticed some folks mentioned compression/stuff sacks. I usually use them when packing a lightweight lock-on (LW .5 or Retrograde) for hikes in. It's an easy way to compress, reduce bulk, and make a weight that's easy to attach to the stand with no snagging or load shift. I've attached them loose as well but prefer the compression sack.

Related to carrying layers in, near the end of last season I used an Eberlestock Vapor 2500 attached to the stand. It worked very well with the straps/buckles that come on it. I need to use it a fair bit more but it will probably be what I use next year.

That super down checks a lot of boxes, at least for me.

My only concern with using high fill power down on garments like this, is that in order for high fill power down to loft properly it can’t be weighed down on the outside. Other than being lightweight, a big reason high fill jackets use light face fabrics is for just that reason.

Light packable whitetail static layers really are an oddball niche of contradictions. Heavy Berber fleece faces for reduced noise and better durability, combined with light weight high loft puffy insulation for warmth that will always be somewhat hampered in loft by that very face fabric needed to keep it quiet.

 

[MI223]

It seems like this comes up fairly frequently here, but with the Whitetail Industrial Complex pushing mobile hunting for the last several years, including saddle hunting, one sticking, ultra lightweight tree stands, and public land…apart from the saddles and stands themselves and a very few cottage companies, why does there seem to be such a lack of lightweight and packable whitetail-specific clothing and equipment that is actually designed for a stand hunter that carries it around a couple miles+ at a go?

I’m thinking of Whitetail-specific backpacks, almost none of which are designed to pack a deer, let alone enough gear for a cold hang-and-hunt in the late season. I’m also referring to Whitetail-specific clothing, all of which is extremely heavy and unbelievably bulky in comparison to Lightweight backpacking or western hunting gear. I’m well aware that quiet fabrics are generally heavier and thicker, and that western-focused gear and backpacking equipment is crinkly and loud. BUT, there are better options that strike a balance, and there seems to be zero development in this direction.

So, do you think I am wrong in my assessment? That there is actually plenty of lightweight packable Whitetail-specific gear, or gear that crosses over very well into Whitetail stand hunting, and is both lightweight and packable, while being quiet?

Or, do you think this is only a marketing push, and there simply isn’t enough people who are truly packing their gear (ie “being mobile”) to need this stuff?
Or is “mobile” only a phenomenon where people are moving, they’re just moving extremely short distances that don’t really require lightweight or packable equipment?

Or is it companies that are just out of touch with what people are doing?

Myself, I find myself gravitating to niche gear, some of which has been discontinued by the manufacturer apparently because they don’t sell enough of it to make it worthwhile, and using a lot of my climbing and backpacking equipment, even though it’s clearly not ideal for my use, simply because it’s so much lighter and more packable. My whitetail-specific gear I’ve generally found to be entirely inferior for my uses because its almost universally heavier and bulkier.

I’m curious if other folks also see this, or if you have a different take on it?

I have never really thought about this. But now I want a soft fleece faced puffy pants and coat.

 

[Beagle1]

Clothing. For stand hunting the best way to avoid bulky hunting clothes is to use battery heated clothes.

Almost all the deer hunters I know are stand hunters and probably 99% of them drag their deer out of the woods. Even the deer trackers who cover a crazy amount of territory in a day usually drag out their deer.

There’s just not a large profitable market for mobile hunting. It gets a lot of press but it’s basically a niche market.