Trick Pin & Welcome Darin Cooper - Check out his best archery tech article!

[bryan cauley]

Coop,

What is the answer for steep angles?

 

[Rent Outdoor Gear]

I thought somebody would come up with this question by now, but nobody has...

WHAT ABOUT STEEP ANGLES - WHAT HAPPENS THEN?

Any guesses??

Put your thinking cap on...

Coop

Thanks for the reminder Bryan... almost forgot! And this is one of the biggest bonuses with the trick pin system.

On angled shots the trick-pin system handles the cuts for you!

At 30 degrees downhill, you would normally need to cut about 16% off the yardage. So at a distance of 40-yards (line of sight) you would shoot it for only 34 yards. If you ignored that cut and aimed dead on with your 40-yard pin you would miss your mark by over 4-inches on the high-side (with my example bow).

One of the cool parts about the trick-pin system is that we already found the peak of the trajectory and we set the test target up so that the most we could miss is 3" high. Well if you shoot steep downhill or uphill, the height of your trajectory peak does not change - it's still only 3" high no matter how steep you shoot! That’s awesome – so now you can forget the rangefinder AND the cut!

The only part that changes is the distance away from the target that the trajectory peak occurs and the distance away from the target that the arrow falls out of the miss tolerance. On a 30 degree angled shot, the peak would occur at 30-yards instead of at 26 on my example bow. The really cool part is that the arrow’s trajectory stays inside the miss tolerance window even longer on uphill/downhill shots so the trick pin actually works better the steeper the shot. At 30 degrees, I can use my trick pin out to 50 yards! Granted, it’s hovering around 3” high for a long time, but it’s still within the +3" miss tolerance.

I initially thought that you would need to aim a little low to account for the fact that a 12” ruler oriented vertically doesn’t look like 12 inches when you view it from 30 degrees above. However 12” is still 12” vertical regardless of how it looks. I shot some angled shots up to 25 degrees a few weeks back to confirm this. As far as I could tell with the testing I did, you do not have to worry about the cuts at typical steep angles. There may be some visual effects due to the curved shape of an animal's body at extreme angles, but if you picture the aiming point on a broadside animal and aim at that point with the trick pin you shouldn't have any trouble. I hope to get out more this spring and do some testing at extreme angles > 35 degrees to confirm what I saw at 25 degrees.

Just another bonus trick for those that needed another excuse to give it a try...

Coop

 

[Rent Outdoor Gear]

Just in case anyone missed it - there is some interesting new info on shooting steep angles with the trick pin system in my last post. I unstuck the thread from the top a while after the post and it dropped down the page so it may have been missed by some. Pretty cool aspect of the technique you don't want to miss.

Coop

 

[Dano57]

Trick Pin

Like Eagle's reply...this is basically gap shooting with pins...or in this case one pin. I shoot traditional / recurve and shoot instinctive. This Trick Pin method is the same as "POA" ...point of aim. My POA on a whitetail at 25 yards is about 12 inches low. So like your method, I would put my "pin" or in my case the point of my arrow 12 inches below the vitals. My POA is dead on at 40 yards. I use POA for practice and helps me imprint that shot sequence and image in my mind. It helps fine tune my instictive shooting. With practice this method - "gap" and "trick pin" - will become automatic. I think this is an excellant article and will help anyone that wants to increase their shooting knowledge and accuracy. I love the idea of hanging the tennis ball from a cord...can't wait to try that!

 

[justin davis]

The trick pin system works pretty well for a single pin setup. You can have it at your trick pin yardage. Be able to make close shots. If you have more time you can move the dial tithe exact yardage

 

[Scottiem]

So I finally got around to doing my "Trick Pin". My Setup:

Hoyt Vector 32
80#? (maxed out & back a 1/4 turn)
29" draw
Victory VAP 250, SS outsert, 125 grain tip, total weight = 511 grains.

I don't have a chrono so I was guessing that I was shooting around 290 fps, so I started with my 50 yrd pin for the trick pin. When shooting at 25 yrds, all of my arrows when right in the bullseye. I kept adjusting and finally got my Trick Pin set at 57 yrds. I didn't expect it to be that far out, but when using the 57 yrd pin all of my arrows were 3" high at 28.5 yrds. View attachment 7765

At 40 yrds I grouped in the bullseye. View attachment 7766

At 52 yrds I grouped 3" low. View attachment 7767

My pins sure do look funny. I've got a 20, 30, 40, 57 (red), 60, 70, 80. View attachment 7768

I hope the pictures uploaded cause I've never done it before. So far it seems to be a pretty cool tool. The only downside I see now is that if I have time to range and the game is at 50 yards, I don't have a 50 pin. I could always shoot 40 high, 60 low, or just use the Trick Pin system. Thanks Darin for the article!

 

[Scottiem]

Now that I think about it, it would probably make more sense to set my 60 pin to my 57 yrd trick pin and my 50 pin back to normal. I feel kinda stupid for not thinking of that originally, but thats what happens when you have tunnel vision and are in the zone. Guess I'll have to go back out and play some more!

 

[Rent Outdoor Gear]

Cool write-up Scottie - save those pics in an album in your profile and then click on each one and copy the BB code into your post. The links didn't work so we can't see the photos. That's a flat shootin' rig you've got there!

Just got my hunting bow setup so I'll post my trick-pin configuration once I get a little range time.

DC

 

[Sunspot]

Darin,
When I was a kid working in an archery pro shop in 1986, I developed a one-pin system as mentioned in your article. I looked to break the paradigm of heavy, clunky setups in favor of speed while still finding a balance for good KE. My theory was having a flatter trajectory reduced margin of error. I still employ the same strategy but modified for western hunting. I like a fixed pin at 25 yards and a floater 40-70 (sits at 50) which keeps my window clean and clutter free for quick acquisition and view. Also, I no longer pull max weight in favor of being able to comfortably hold anchor for 5 minutes with a KE of 76. Thanks for the good read.

Kevin

 

[justin davis]

Sunspot- interesting pin configuration
Pretty cool

I using a single pin. Trick pin style unless the target is passed 45 yards

 

[Sunspot]

Sunspot- interesting pin configuration
Pretty cool

I using a single pin. Trick pin style unless the target is passed 45 yards

It works well for me since anything from 1-40 yards has little guesswork but allows me to dial it in when I have time or want superior accuracy from 40-70 yards. I could never stand the 5-7 fixed pin (that is like trying to see through a grill) and wanted something quicker than a 1-pin floater that extended me out to 50 yards without excessive movement or adjustment.

 

[oct71]

Just read the article, you got my gears turning. I've been using a single pin for a few years and have blown a few chances needing to range and set my pin. Great idea you came up with.

 

[ctdad]

Has anybody ever set up a second trick pin for longer range? Maybe a 100 yard pin that would cover 40-70 yards? Would it work? Any idea on where to start?

 

[carpssublime]

read this before season last year and forgot about it. gonna take a stab at it this week, seems to be the cure for some issues ive had in the past.

 

[Archelk]

Darin, Thanks a ton for sharing the info in your article. I have made my targets and will start experimenting this weekend with 3", 4" and variation " windows. I know I'll be using this technique for sure when elk season arrives. Even have a full size home made buffalo target I'll start experimenting on as well for an upcoming winter hunt.

 

[justin davis]

Has anybody ever set up a second trick pin for longer range? Maybe a 100 yard pin that would cover 40-70 yards? Would it work? Any idea on where to start?

Thats an interesting thought. I't not sure it would work thou.

 

[rhendrix]

I know I'm late to the party here, but I plan on setting up a trick pin for my single pin MBG site in the next couple of weeks. Looking forward to playing around with this!

 

[Oakhaven]

Well, I'm later to the party than rhendrix, so hopefully the necromancy is acceptable for this thread. I've been roughly playing with the system for a few days and really like the idea behind it. I say "roughly," however, because I don't have a 40, 50, or 60-yard pin. My local ranges are also 30 yards and my back yard maxes out at 27 yards. So, between not generally having much clearance beyond 30 yards here in the Ozarks and practice limitations keeping my effective range in that ballpark, I've only been using a 15 yard and 25 yard pin. I'll also note last year was my first year hunting in general, let alone bowhunting... and though I managed to get within 20 yards of a deer stillhunting I shot high because I didn't believe I was that close. I also had one walk within 10 yards but she was walking straight toward me and made me out at 10 before bolting, so never a good shot. Still, I'm pleased I had those close calls on the ground in my first year.

I'll also note I'm shooting a 2013 Diamond Core at about 45# draw weight at present (gradually increasing) because I prefer a setting that's not too heavy but not so light that you'd easily draw without back muscles because I practice in all kinds of odd positions that I might have to hold in when a deer is in view. I don't have a chronograph so I'm not sure of the FPS. I hate to get one for such limited use.. but might see if one pro shop with a range has one I could use for a moment.

I played with this idea by taking my 3rd pin (which I had left at the bottom of my sight) and estimating about where 45-50 yards might be in relation to my 25-yard pin. So I didn't formally sight it in or anything as the article describes. I just wanted to get a feel for it. I got a feel for how it was in relation to my 15- and 25-yard pins and then took shots from wherever I could in my yard without really scrutinizing yardage other than gauging whether I was less than or greater than 20 yards. I didn't pay much attention to my 15- or 25-yard pins, but I'm sure having them in my field of view influenced my aiming some, even with my focus on the target and the rough trick pin. Every hit was a vital shot and two or three were often stacked.. from rather different ranges, I might add.

So, I really like the idea, but I'm not sure if I can successfully dial a trick pin in without knowing the actual point-on yardage it relates to. I mean, I could sight a pin in that puts arrows 3" above the bullseye when aiming at a point 12" below the bullseye (18" below point of impact) at a certain yardage around 25 yards and fiddle with it to get it dialed in, but I would have to assume that since I don't know that I am actually 1/2 the distance from that pin's zero point that there's no way to ensure that my bow is appropriately angled to make the most of that +/- 3" window at the top of the parabolic arc.

I really like the idea behind the trick pin, especially in tandem with something like a 20-yard pin. But I figure I'm unable to implement it unless I can actually get somewhere to find measure the FPS and shoot 40+ yards. Thoughts?

 

[Rent Outdoor Gear]

Well, I'm later to the party than rhendrix, so hopefully the necromancy is acceptable for this thread. I've been roughly playing with the system for a few days and really like the idea behind it. I say "roughly," however, because I don't have a 40, 50, or 60-yard pin. My local ranges are also 30 yards and my back yard maxes out at 27 yards. So, between not generally having much clearance beyond 30 yards here in the Ozarks and practice limitations keeping my effective range in that ballpark, I've only been using a 15 yard and 25 yard pin. I'll also note last year was my first year hunting in general, let alone bowhunting... and though I managed to get within 20 yards of a deer stillhunting I shot high because I didn't believe I was that close. I also had one walk within 10 yards but she was walking straight toward me and made me out at 10 before bolting, so never a good shot. Still, I'm pleased I had those close calls on the ground in my first year.

I'll also note I'm shooting a 2013 Diamond Core at about 45# draw weight at present (gradually increasing) because I prefer a setting that's not too heavy but not so light that you'd easily draw without back muscles because I practice in all kinds of odd positions that I might have to hold in when a deer is in view. I don't have a chronograph so I'm not sure of the FPS. I hate to get one for such limited use.. but might see if one pro shop with a range has one I could use for a moment.

I played with this idea by taking my 3rd pin (which I had left at the bottom of my sight) and estimating about where 45-50 yards might be in relation to my 25-yard pin. So I didn't formally sight it in or anything as the article describes. I just wanted to get a feel for it. I got a feel for how it was in relation to my 15- and 25-yard pins and then took shots from wherever I could in my yard without really scrutinizing yardage other than gauging whether I was less than or greater than 20 yards. I didn't pay much attention to my 15- or 25-yard pins, but I'm sure having them in my field of view influenced my aiming some, even with my focus on the target and the rough trick pin. Every hit was a vital shot and two or three were often stacked.. from rather different ranges, I might add.

So, I really like the idea, but I'm not sure if I can successfully dial a trick pin in without knowing the actual point-on yardage it relates to. I mean, I could sight a pin in that puts arrows 3" above the bullseye when aiming at a point 12" below the bullseye (18" below point of impact) at a certain yardage around 25 yards and fiddle with it to get it dialed in, but I would have to assume that since I don't know that I am actually 1/2 the distance from that pin's zero point that there's no way to ensure that my bow is appropriately angled to make the most of that +/- 3" window at the top of the parabolic arc.

I really like the idea behind the trick pin, especially in tandem with something like a 20-yard pin. But I figure I'm unable to implement it unless I can actually get somewhere to find measure the FPS and shoot 40+ yards. Thoughts?

Your second to last paragraph pretty well nails it Oakhaven... except the (18" below point of impact) should actually be 15" below... and based on your on-target results being vital hits, I'd say you're probably very close to having the right pin setting already as luck would have it. Just need to haul your target out somewhere and test at the longer range to see where you drop out of the vitals so you'll know the limits.

You don't necessarily need to know velocity or necessarily the actual sight in distance to get it right, although I developed those guidelines to help make the system easier to dial in. If your shots are going to be 25 - 35 yards max, then I would set the trickpin distance so you're hitting the bottom of say a 5" dot (whitetail being a little smaller animal) at 35 yards and see what you get at 20-25 yards. I suspect by fiddling around a bit you can find a setting that will keep you in that 5" zone between those distances pretty easily and possibly further depending on your arrow speed.

Good luck on anchoring your first whitetail with a bow this season!

Coop

 

[Oakhaven]

Your second to last paragraph pretty well nails it Oakhaven... except the (18" below point of impact) should actually be 15" below... and based on your on-target results being vital hits, I'd say you're probably very close to having the right pin setting already as luck would have it. Just need to haul your target out somewhere and test at the longer range to see where you drop out of the vitals so you'll know the limits.

You don't necessarily need to know velocity or necessarily the actual sight in distance to get it right, although I developed those guidelines to help make the system easier to dial in. If your shots are going to be 25 - 35 yards max, then I would set the trickpin distance so you're hitting the bottom of say a 5" dot (whitetail being a little smaller animal) at 35 yards and see what you get at 20-25 yards. I suspect by fiddling around a bit you can find a setting that will keep you in that 5" zone between those distances pretty easily and possibly further depending on your arrow speed.

Good luck on anchoring your first whitetail with a bow this season!

Coop

Oh yeah, derpy math on my part. Thanks for the feedback and that makes a lot of sense. If you can put all of the original pieces together I guess that helps dial it in without as much trial and error. But I see what you're saying... that with trial and error you can find a sweet spot for a pin and then, through further trial and error you can establish what your range bracket is (minimum and maximum distance to be within your target window). I recently took my target to the woods/clearing behind my house and was able to shoot at longer ranges.

I'll have to play with it. I plan to still have a 20 and 30 yard pin, but if I can find a trick-pin-esque point of impact I'm thinking that is a great little informal range finding tactic. When I first tried it with the rough setting, I'd hold the trick pin at about the 12" down point. When I looked at the point of desired impact and its proximity to one of my pins that would give me a good ballpark figure. So say I put the trick pin 12" down from the center of my target zone and I'm looking at it framed halfway between my 20 and 30 yard pin. Seems like that's a good clue that I'm in the realm of 25 yards. If I held 12" down with the trick pin and my 20 yard pin was low on the target point that was a clue that I was closer than 20 yards... so on and so forth. Using that feedback from the relationship between the trick pin and the sight picture and then targeting appropriately generally yielded pretty good results.

Once I get it dialed in and practice a lot with it, it seems to me that I can then use that information to hold higher or lower (based on my experience through practice and detailed understanding of my bow) to refine the shot a little more and further shrink the error window... which is already dialed in to be in the vital area. The other thing that's great is once you get used to it it seems like it easily becomes an almost unconscious or intuitive sequence that doesn't require a lot of thought because you've trained yourself to quickly relate the trick pin and sight picture together to give you a ballpark estimate of range. Intui-gap shooting with a sight. Granted, a 0-25 or 30 range is close enough a lot might just do the 20 yard pin and learn holdovers, but I really like the range finding element the trick pin seems to add.

Incidentally, here's a pic I took of the results of my informal foray into the trick pin setup. Not bad considering the pin placement was just a rough estimate. This was actually using the trick pin alone rather than in tandem with other pins. The shots are from varying yardages between 12 and 27 yards.