Trick Pin & Welcome Darin Cooper - Check out his best archery tech article!

[Rent Outdoor Gear]

Yea I am a 7 pin guy. Have always shot 7 pin 20-80 yard pin configuration. Have considered hunting with just a single pin moveable, but kinda scared too.

So with your 7 pin config. Your 1st pin is your trick pin...and set at approx 50 yards? Then remainder of the pins from there?

You certainly could do that, but I set mine up just like a standard bow-site 20 - 80, my center pin (50) is my trick pin, and I use my 80-yard pin as my rover if I need to dial the range.

I didn't discuss it in the article because it was starting to get long winded, but there's a good reason to keep the short yardage pins there...

Your bowsight works as a reasonably accurate, albeit rudimentary rangefinder. Just anchor you trick-pin 12" low of the target then look up to see which pin or pin-gap is on the spot you want to hit - that's the approximate range of your target (obviously you need to be within trick pin range for this to work).

I know, the reason for developing the trick pin is so you don't need to think about the range on close shots... But what if you need to shoot over a branch that's in front of your bull? You can aim at the bull with your trick pin (12" low of course) and see which pin is on the branch. If the branch is about 20 yards away and your 20 pin is on it, then you're going to hit the branch. If your 30 pin is on it and your 20 pin is over it, you should be able to clear the branch and drop the arrow into the bull behind it. This ability is yet another advantage to hunting with multi-pin sights over a single pin.

Coop

 

[Rent Outdoor Gear]

Thanks Darin, very interesting. 2 questions.

1) Do you suppose this will influence target panic, but not actually holding "on target"?
2) I wonder heat of moment will this cause issues of "aiming low/or not aiming low"?

Will be fun to play with. Thanks.

Interesting question Les... I don't foresee it causing any issues for people. In fact, it might actually help some people that have a hard time freezing below the target because they're not actually aiming where they want to hit anymore. I think if you were aiming very close, but just off of the spot you wanted to hit there would be a risk of developing some bad habits. Kind of like trying to aim at 9:00 on the 10-ring of a vegas target - the pin is so close to the middle your brain just wants to put it back in the middle.

After using it for years, I haven't noticed any side effects other than an occasional sore back & shoulders and more bills from my taxidermist.

DC

 

[robby denning]

After using it for years, I haven't noticed any side effects other than an occasional sore back & shoulders and more bills from my taxidermist.
DC

Got it!

 

[justin davis]

You certainly could do that, but I set mine up just like a standard bow-site 20 - 80, my center pin (50) is my trick pin, and I use my 80-yard pin as my rover if I need to dial the range.

I didn't discuss it in the article because it was starting to get long winded, but there's a good reason to keep the short yardage pins there...

Your bowsight works as a reasonably accurate, albeit rudimentary rangefinder. Just anchor you trick-pin 12" low of the target then look up to see which pin or pin-gap is on the spot you want to hit - that's the approximate range of your target (obviously you need to be within trick pin range for this to work).

I know, the reason for developing the trick pin is so you don't need to think about the range on close shots... But what if you need to shoot over a branch that's in front of your bull? You can aim at the bull with your trick pin (12" low of course) and see which pin is on the branch. If the branch is about 20 yards away and your 20 pin is on it, then you're going to hit the branch. If your 30 pin is on it and your 20 pin is over it, you should be able to clear the branch and drop the arrow into the bull behind it. This ability is yet another advantage to hunting with multi-pin sights over a single pin.

Coop

Oh gotcha makes sense. Yes that is a main reason why I have always used a multi pin over the single. It is nice to be able to shoot under or over branches and know your not going to hit them via your pins at that range.

 

[Whisky]

As somebody who has had target panic, I would think the trick pin system would actually help in that regards. You're not going to be so focused on that little center dot on the target, or the heart, or whatever...

I did think about obstructions, and that is a dis-advantage to the trick pin. Another thing is, what about animal reaction? If you're already giving your self +/- 4-6" of error, that could possibly create some issues when an animal decides to jump the string. You could be at a range where you will hit 3" high of center and then when he jumps the string, you will be way off. Add in the fact that if you mis-judge 11 or 13" instead of 12, and that throws in more error.

Neat idea though, and I will probably play around with it on target for a bit to see what I think.

 

[stinky]

Is there any reason why you couldn't use your 26 yard pin for your trick pin and hold dead on for all your shots from 10-42 yards? That way you could still put on some more pins if you wanted for longer range situations but still be set for anything out to 42. I'm going to give that a try when the snow clears up a bit here.

 

[Rent Outdoor Gear]

Is there any reason why you couldn't use your 26 yard pin for your trick pin and hold dead on for all your shots from 10-42 yards? That way you could still put on some more pins if you wanted for longer range situations but still be set for anything out to 42. I'm going to give that a try when the snow clears up a bit here.

There's actually a real good reason... you would miss more than 3" low on anything past 32 yards even if you were shooting a 330 fps bow. See the image below (this one is for a Mckenzie caribou ten-ring) with a bow shooting 330 fps.

The trick pin is NOT just for single pin sights...

You can also use as many pins as you want with the trick pin. I use 7-pins and my sight is an adjustable sight so I can dial in distances beyond 80 yards.

Coop

 

[stinky]

I'm not sure I explained myself clearly. What I'm saying is to use your method to figure out the trick pin. Once you have that one set up, couldn't you add a pin in the "bullseye" position so a guy wouldn't have aim off target, or better yet use the trick pin in combination with the "bullseye" pin to help confirm your target/animal is within the 10-42 yard range.

I'm thinking that the trajectory you have shown above might prove this out if you set the Min Range at 10 instead of 1. If any animal is within 10 yards, I'd end up putting all my pins on it and hit the trigger.

 

[Rent Outdoor Gear]

I'm not sure I explained myself clearly. What I'm saying is to use your method to figure out the trick pin. Once you have that one set up, couldn't you add a pin in the "bullseye" position so a guy wouldn't have aim off target, or better yet use the trick pin in combination with the "bullseye" pin to help confirm your target/animal is within the 10-42 yard range.

I'm thinking that the trajectory you have shown above might prove this out if you set the Min Range at 10 instead of 1. If any animal is within 10 yards, I'd end up putting all my pins on it and hit the trigger.

I think I understand what you're saying, but the bullseye pin would change at every distance because the target appears smaller the farther away you are. At 20 yards, your 20 pin will be in the center of the lungs. However, at 40 yards, your 20-pin is going to be up high on the back or even over the back depending on the speed of your bow - but your 40-pin should now be in the center of the lungs.

Obviously - it would be nicer if you could aim point-on with the pin, but it just doesn't work that way.

I had another buddy ask if you could sight in a pin so you could aim on top of the back instead so that shots like the mule deer in the sage-brush photo would still work ok because you would still be able to see the top of the back in most cases.

I thought about that for a while but determined that it does not work because the trajectory and perspective with distance works against you. You would have to use an imaginary distance to sight the top pin in because it would be much higher than your normal 20-yard top pin, but that would be OK. The problem is that if you held on the top of the back with this new top pin, the real correct pin would only line up at one point - everywhere else it would be off and you would quickly be out of range.

The only way it works is sighting in a longer range pin and holding it low.

Coop

 

[Rent Outdoor Gear]

I thought somebody would come up with this question by now, but nobody has...

WHAT ABOUT STEEP ANGLES - WHAT HAPPENS THEN?

Any guesses??

Put your thinking cap on...

Coop

 

[bryan cauley]

Have to aim lower, as the relation to the aiming point for the trick pin (bottom of chest on elk) and where you want to hit will be less than 12" on a steep angle, either up or down. So, take you elk pictures from above, I think you would have to pick a point below the bottom of the chest, and depending on the angle, the aim point would vary considerably. Say on a very steep downward angle, the trick pin would have to be aimed at the elk's feet to hit correctly. Just guessing, nice wolf by the way on your other thread.

 

[Rent Outdoor Gear]

originally posted by jquarnberg in another thread:

I was reading the article here on Rokslide about setting up a trick pin. I tried this a couple years ago with little success. The article helped educate me a bit and proivided some detailed instructions. Is it pretty easy to do? Anyone with experience doing this?

Confidence in a trick pin may have helped me when I missed a 190 buck I had watched all summer that suprised me at 26 yards one morning with my range finder still in my pack. I know... i really shouldnt need a range finder at that range but I guessed 40 and it went right over his back. I blame buck fever and still get sick about it to this day. Learned a lot that day but reading that article made me realize that if I had a trick pin system I may have been able to get one into him.

 

[Rent Outdoor Gear]

Answering JQ's question above... I think it's pretty easy to do. Maybe some other folks can chime in after they play with the methods I have laid out. I think you can have a trick pin set up in an hour pretty easily. After that, it's all about practicing with it and getting confident enough to use it when you really need it.

I hope you'll give it a shot! The situation where you missed your buck is a perfect example of a scenario where the trick-pin system excels and should put horns on the wall. Almost every bowhunter has made a similar mistake at some point in their career - this is just one more tool to help you get better.

Coop

 

[Evan Williams]

Coop,

Its GREAT to hear about the Senior Editor!!! Its been such an honor and a privilege getting to speak with you and have the conversations that we have had over the last year. I look forward to even more dealings in the future and again, congratulations.

 

[Nick Muche]

I want to hear more about this trick pin deal!

Is it possible to set it up for a specific set of ranges and use it for 3D to get you in the 8 or 10 ring every time?

 

[Rent Outdoor Gear]

I want to hear more about this trick pin deal!

Is it possible to set it up for a specific set of ranges and use it for 3D to get you in the 8 or 10 ring every time?

Nick, if you didn't read the article, it's posted here: http://www.rokslide.com/2012-01-09-05-09-42/archery/252-the-qtrick-pinq-system

 

[littlebrotherC]

So I've been thinking about this concept almost every night for the last week. I think I'm a little slower than all y'all. It seems to me that there should be a way to not hold 12 inches low and still make this work. If you hold the 50 yrd pin 12 inches low there's an angle that you're holding the bow at. Let's call it 7 degrees above level. If you're holding 12 inches low at 10 or at 40 that angle will be 7 degrees. Why can't you figure out what that angle is, set you're sight accordingly, and let 'er rip?

 

[gunnar]

So I've been thinking about this concept almost every night for the last week. I think I'm a little slower than all y'all. It seems to me that there should be a way to not hold 12 inches low and still make this work. ?

littlebrotherC - I am in agreement with all 3 of these statements! Especially the part where I am slower than everyone here, but I have to think you are exactly right.

Darin,

This sounds very interesting but I have a question. I see how this works with the 12" hold under. Since there is a spot where you have a pin that you can hold 12" under and hit a +/-3" area from 10-42.5 yds (per your example), I have to believe that there is then a spot where you could hold exactly on the spot you want to hit and you would hit +/-3" of that spot depending on the yardage. Can you help me understand if I am totally missing something? I'm thinking you wouldn't want to do that because it would be in the middle of your 20, 30, or 40 yd pins.

Thanks guys, just recently got told about this website and I have found it to be awesome!

gunnar

 

[Racethesunset]

Thanks for the article - love to have the support of world class folks on this site.

 

[Rent Outdoor Gear]

littlebrotherC - I am in agreement with all 3 of these statements! Especially the part where I am slower than everyone here, but I have to think you are exactly right.

Darin,

This sounds very interesting but I have a question. I see how this works with the 12" hold under. Since there is a spot where you have a pin that you can hold 12" under and hit a +/-3" area from 10-42.5 yds (per your example), I have to believe that there is then a spot where you could hold exactly on the spot you want to hit and you would hit +/-3" of that spot depending on the yardage. Can you help me understand if I am totally missing something? I'm thinking you wouldn't want to do that because it would be in the middle of your 20, 30, or 40 yd pins.

Thanks guys, just recently got told about this website and I have found it to be awesome!

gunnar

Sorry for the slow reply guys - I made a post that didn't take about a week ago in regard to littlebrotherC's question...

To handle both questions at the same time, in short, no you can't...

The reason the system works is because we are taking advantage of the peak of the trajectory by using a longer sight in distance and aiming low. The range the trick pin works is 10 - 42.5 in my example because the arrow is rising and falling through that range inside the +/- 3" window that I chose to use as a miss tolerance in the example shown below.

I posted another graphic below illustrating the trajectory for a bow shooting 330 fps aiming dead on with a pin sighted in at 27.5 yards... as you can see the arrow drops out of the miss tolerance (more than 3" low at 33 yards). If we use a longer range pin than 27.5, the arrow will break out of the top of the tolerance at about 15 yards. I too wish there was an easier solution, but thanks to physics - this method is the only way to get this type of advantage. I've been using it and developing the method for almost 10 years. I've put a ton of thought into how/why it works and how to define it for anyone so it can be tweaked and customized for your individual setup.

LittlebrotherC - I'm not sure I totally follow the concept you brought up... but I don't think there's a practical way to measure the angle under varying field conditions - and it doesn't work if you are aiming point on. You can easily prove this by just trying it. Set up your target and try different pins at various distances and you'll see that if you aim dead on you will not be able to stay within +/- 3" over a very broad range even if your hunting bow shoots as fast or even faster than the one modeled in the 330 fps example above.

Also note that as you shoot from different distances with the trick pin, the correct yardage pin will always be on the vital while you're aiming with the trick pin 12" low because the target appears smaller at distance so effectively you ARE raising the bow the further back you get. That would not occur if you were aiming point on.

Another person asked me if you could maybe develop a similar system but aim at the top of the back with a pin sighted in at a very short distance... Once again, good thought, but as you shoot at longer distances the pins are moving in the wrong direction due to perspective (the target appearing smaller at distance).

I hope this helps you all grasp the concept better. It's tough to understand, but try not to over-think it. It's so easy to go test and it's easier to use than it seems. Just give it a whirl. You can be up and running with it in less than an hour!

Shoot straight!

Coop