Treated Vs. Untreated Down Submersion Test

[Brad@Argali]

I hope this video surprises you all as much as it surprised me. This isn't a scientific study, but the fact that untreated down performed better than treated down when submerged in water wasn't something I expected to happen. And to make it even more interesting, treated down took longer to dry out. And yes, we could have submerged the down samples for longer and perhaps seen different results. I'll leave future tests to other people.

When we were devleoping our sleeping bag, I decided I was tired of being told by other brands/people etc. how treated and untreated down would perform against each other in water and decided to do my own homework. IMO, this confirmed my suspicions that most of the hype around treated down is largely bogus when you think about real world application.

 

[LostWapiti]

You can't beat nature. Those birds live in the water.

 

[Brad@Argali]

You can't beat nature. Those birds live in the water.

Exactly. I keep telling people geese somehow manage to float without being doused in DWR.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

There’s a reason companies like western mountaneering continue to use the untreated down they’ve been using.

They’ve been experimenting with treated down for over a decade now and haven’t found a benefit to switching.

 

[Brightside]

Im not sold on the treated stuff. I know it took an aweful lot of effort and time to dry out my treated Stone bag when condensation from my tent touching it wetted it out. The footbox wetted out in one night, leaving me screwed when my tipi (w/ stove) sagged onto it while raining. The stove couldnt seem to dry it out even after hours of effort but a couple boiling hot nalgenes stuffed into it every few hours helped a lot. Switching to synthetic insulation and dyneema. Oregon Coast...

 

[MI223]

I have been shopping for a down bag for a while. This makes me rethink all my front runners.

 

[mrbillbrown]

Western Mountaineering has had this figured out for years and years. That’s why they never fell prey to the treated down. The treated stuff is a snake oil salesman’s trick.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[plebe]

Thanks for sharing your result.

There’s a bunch of water jar and other “tests” on YouTube claiming/showing that submerged treated down demonstrates more loft than untreated down after being subjected to water too.

Do you think they are using inferior untreated down to offer biased results? Is there a simpler explanation for why their tests run opposite of yours?

 

[Brad@Argali]

Thanks for sharing your result.

There’s a bunch of water jar and other “tests” on YouTube claiming/showing that submerged treated down demonstrates more loft than untreated down after being subjected to water too.

Do you think they are using inferior untreated down to offer biased results? Is there a simpler explanation for why their tests run opposite of yours?

Not knowing what those testers are doing it's hard to say for sure. My guess would be that they are not using a premium quality down.

How untreated down is cleaned has an huge impact on whether or not the natural oils are stripped during the process. Goose down is a byproduct of the goose meat market, so you can imagine processing it requires a fair bit of clean up. If you're buying cheaper down not processed correctly, it will very likely be stripped of a lot of the natural oils that make it highly water resistant. Most of the down in the outdoor market comes from China and who knows how it is processed. I can only speak to our down and our testing with any knowledge.

 

[mod7rem]

There’s a reason companies like western mountaneering continue to use the untreated down they’ve been using.

They’ve been experimenting with treated down for over a decade now and haven’t found a benefit to switching.

Years ago I bought a quilt from UGQ and they were not offering treated down anymore for the same reason.

 

[Cyril]

I haven't read all the studies and I am guessing most are skewed to prove a point on one side or the other. I own a western mountaineering kodiak and love it. Their fabrics are great, attention to detail in production is amazing.

I also own a katabatic quilt with treated down. I bought it for a 2023 moose hunt. It is treated down and it was the first year they were running ExpeDry as their down treatment. I know when in Alaska, we had a tent leak issue that during a night of driving rain, resulted in me waking up soaked. In the middle of the night, I put up a tarp to cut off the water, put on my synthetic puffy and went back to sleep. I woke up with me and the quilt completely dry.

A few weeks back the owner of outdoor vitals was on the hunt back country podcast and he was asked about changes in the clothing and gear industry, good and bad. He said buy rain gear, because the alternatives in membrane and treatment that will meet new regulations are not nearly as effective. The good was ExpeDry, this was the best treatment for down he had seen and is a game changer for down garments and gear.

I know it worked perfectly in my situation, time will tell if it effects longevity of the product.

 

[Macintosh]

One “benefit” of treated down is it artificially inflates the fill-power. Ie “650 fill power” down, after treatment will actually test to 750…only problem is it doesnt provide any better insulation. So as a consumer we get fooled into thinking its better quality down than it really is. But as a manufacturer you can charge more for an inferior product as far as insulating value is concerned. My example of 650>>750 is just a made-up increase, I dont recall what the actual numbers were but the increase was significant when we tested it where I used to work. Thats one major reason why a lot of companies pushed it.

 

[KeepHammering]

Nature at its finest!

 

[Ryan Avery]

I have spent hundreds of nights in a WM Badger in very wet environments in North Idaho and have never had an issue with untreated down.

 

[Brad@Argali]

I haven't read all the studies and I am guessing most are skewed to prove a point on one side or the other. I own a western mountaineering kodiak and love it. Their fabrics are great, attention to detail in production is amazing.

I also own a katabatic quilt with treated down. I bought it for a 2023 moose hunt. It is treated down and it was the first year they were running ExpeDry as their down treatment. I know when in Alaska, we had a tent leak issue that during a night of driving rain, resulted in me waking up soaked. In the middle of the night, I put up a tarp to cut off the water, put on my synthetic puffy and went back to sleep. I woke up with me and the quilt completely dry.

A few weeks back the owner of outdoor vitals was on the hunt back country podcast and he was asked about changes in the clothing and gear industry, good and bad. He said buy rain gear, because the alternatives in membrane and treatment that will meet new regulations are not nearly as effective. The good was ExpeDry, this was the best treatment for down he had seen and is a game changer for down garments and gear.

I know it worked perfectly in my situation, time will tell if it effects longevity of the product.

I agree with both of those takes. The new PFAs free rain gear isn't going to be as good until technology catches up. I suspect in time we will see the technology catch up, but who knows how long that will take.

Expedry is definitely different than traditional dwr treated down. It's early days with that product, and whether or not the increased cost is worth it over untreated down is still an open question. For me it is a question of what is the performance benefit in the real world, and does the increased cost justify using it over a quality untreated down that clearly works. Expedry will still saturate with prolonged exposure to moisture like any down that is treated or untreated, but it doesn't have the same downsides as traditional dwr coatings. So it is a very interesting product with some potential upsides, and we will be testing it to make our own decision on whether we see any real world difference.

 

[Maverick1]

@Brad@Argali - wait - you mean a company would actually use false & unscientific marketing techniques to sell more products?!?!?!!……..

 

[Brightside]

Coming from a construction backround, the treated down leaves me with one major concern. One that I feel was validated with my SG bag with how much time and effort it took to dry out. If water gets through a weak point in the coating, how does it get out? It would take a lot longer to escape once its trapped behind the coating.

I would think natural down would be able to give up collected moisture much easier than treated. It might get saturated a little faster too, but it should dry faster.

 

[AndyB]

Don’t ducks and other water birds have to re oil their feathers every day to keep water repellency up?

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Look at the waterproofness value (hydrostatic-head) for the material used on the bag.

Most folks would not have any qualms about a Kuiu Mountain Star, Kuiu Storm Star, Stone Glacier Dome keeping or a Hilleberg Allak keeping them dry. Take a look at their (vendor provided) waterproof values on some tents:

• Kuiu Mountain Star: Fly 15D silicone/PU coated HH 1200mm, Floor 40D silicone/PU coated HH 1500mm
• Kuiu Storm Star: Fly 30D silicone/PU coated HH 3000mm, Tub/Floor 40D silicone/PU coated HH 5000mm
• Stone Glacier Dome: Fly 70D silicone/PU coated HH 1500mm, Tub/Floor 210D HH 5000mm, Sidewall 70D 1500mm
• Hilleberg Allak: Fly HH 5000mm, Tub/Floor HH 15000mm

Here are numbers from Western Mountaineering on their bags:

• Western Mountaineering - ExtremeLite: HH 1200mm
• Western Mountaineering - MicroFiber: HH 2000mm
• Western Mountaineering - Gore Windstopper/Infinium: HH 12000mm

The ExtremeLite fabric has the same waterproof values as the Mountain Star, the MicroFiber fabric has higher waterproof values than the Mountain Star, and Gore fabric whoops almost all of them across the board. The Allak's fly has a lower waterproof value than the Gore material used by WM but does have a higher value than the Gore material when it comes to the tub.

 

[WeiserBucks]

Look at the waterproofness value (hydrostatic-head) for the material used on the bag.

Most folks would not have any qualms about a Kuiu Mountain Star, Kuiu Storm Star, Stone Glacier Dome keeping or a Hilleberg Allak keeping them dry. Take a look at their (vendor provided) waterproof values on some tents:

• Kuiu Mountain Star: Fly 15D silicone/PU coated HH 1200mm, Floor 40D silicone/PU coated HH 1500mm
• Kuiu Storm Star: Fly 30D silicone/PU coated HH 3000mm, Tub/Floor 40D silicone/PU coated HH 5000mm
• Stone Glacier Dome: Fly 70D silicone/PU coated HH 1500mm, Tub/Floor 210D HH 5000mm, Sidewall 70D 1500mm
• Hilleberg Allak: Fly HH 5000mm, Tub/Floor HH 15000mm

Here are numbers from Western Mountaineering on their bags:

• Western Mountaineering - ExtremeLite: HH 1200mm
• Western Mountaineering - MicroFiber: HH 2000mm
• Western Mountaineering - Gore Windstopper/Infinium: HH 12000mm

The ExtremeLite fabric has the same waterproof values as the Mountain Star, the MicroFiber fabric has higher waterproof values than the Mountain Star, and Gore fabric whoops almost all of them across the board. The Allak's fly has a lower waterproof value than the Gore material used by WM but does have a higher value than the Gore material when it comes to the tub.

I personally think it's all gibberish, I've had 25000mm rain gear soak through but not any tent or my FF sleeping bags.