Training tips (not intended to be argumentative)

[Poser]

Is time being taken into consideration in everyone’s advice. If I had all the time in the world, I’d definitely lifts weights. Seeing that currently I only have my lunch break to workout, strength training is not going to cut it for me. There’s no way anyone is going to convince me that weight lifting with long waits between sets is an efficient (from a time management perspective) way to stay in shape. I don’t care what I can squat, dead lift, or bench. I’ll out hike the world record holder in all three lifts.


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Strength is the most common way in which you interact with the world, therefore, being stronger is better than being weaker, so you only stand to benefit from strength training.

Powerlifting and strength training are not the same things. They may share the same training movements but powerlifters compete in these movements for 1 rep maxes. Strength trainees train these movements to have a stronger bodies. Unless a person is walking out on a stage in front of judges and competing against others for 1 rep maxes, they are not a powerlifter and I don’t think that anyone recommends that you need to compete as a powerlifter in order to benefit from strength training much less to hunt better.

Also, for the record, I go to the gym 3 days a week for usually no more than 90 minutes. Probably 75 on average. Novice strength programs should be able to be completed in no more than 45-60 minutes. At the intermediate level, that is more problematic because you have to do more volume and the rest times will be longer. The easiest solution for the time crunch is to then go to a 4 day split which can easily get you out of the gym in under an hour, albeit 4 days a week vs. 3.

 

[JohnnyB]

Strength is the most common way in which you interact with the world, therefore, being stronger is better than being weaker, so you only stand to benefit from strength training.

Powerlifting and strength training are not the same things. They may share the same training movements but powerlifters compete in these movements for 1 rep maxes. Strength trainees train these movements to have a stronger bodies. Unless a person is walking out on a stage in front of judges and competing against others for 1 rep maxes, they are not a powerlifter and I don’t think that anyone recommends that you need to compete as a powerlifter in order to benefit from strength training much less to hunt better.

The comment wasn’t that powerlifting and strength training are the same thing and the comment acknowledges that strength training is beneficial. The comment seems to suggest that if you have limited time to train, spending It strength training isn’t the most productive use of time.

Strength training is an important part of my overall training. That being said, strength training alone has not been effective in preparing me for hunting with a pack. My first two years hunting I would have gladly given up 100 pounds off my 1 rep max bench or deadlift or squat to have put in miles on my legs prior to the season.

Strength is only part of the equation and as much as it sounds good to say more strength is always better, it just isn’t true. At a certain point the burdens of additional strength (additional muscle) come with too high of a price for endurance athletes or endurance style activity.

It seems a lot of these threads get hit with the argument that “when you are packing out an elk you’ll be glad you lifted weights“. Most of the guys on this site that are known elk killers seem to talk about strength training but also tons of endurance work.

We are lucky to have some super knowledgeable guys on this site with regard to strength training. 5x5 is an excellent plan. I still agree with the comment that “l‘ll out hike the world record holder in all three lifts”. I guess I would ask the obvious expert strength guys, am I missing what you are saying or do you really believe that just a 5x5 program alone is the best preparation for backcountry hunting? Thanks for all the strength training info!

 

[jorgensen.travis]

Strength is the most common way in which you interact with the world, therefore, being stronger is better than being weaker, so you only stand to benefit from strength training.

Powerlifting and strength training are not the same things. They may share the same training movements but powerlifters compete in these movements for 1 rep maxes. Strength trainees train these movements to have a stronger bodies. Unless a person is walking out on a stage in front of judges and competing against others for 1 rep maxes, they are not a powerlifter and I don’t think that anyone recommends that you need to compete as a powerlifter in order to benefit from strength training much less to hunt better.

Also, for the record, I go to the gym 3 days a week for usually no more than 90 minutes. Probably 75 on average. Novice strength programs should be able to be completed in no more than 45-60 minutes. At the intermediate level, that is more problematic because you have to do more volume and the rest times will be longer. The easiest solution for the time crunch is to then go to a 4 day split which can easily get you out of the gym in under an hour, albeit 4 days a week vs. 3.

I rarely have more than 30 minutes and definitely no time to drive to a gym. I’m able to excel at everything that is important to me. Lifting heavy weight is not one of those things.


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[Poser]

The comment wasn’t that powerlifting and strength training are the same thing and the comment acknowledges that strength training is beneficial. The comment seems to suggest that if you have limited time to train, spending It strength training isn’t the most productive use of time.

Strength training is an important part of my overall training. That being said, strength training alone has not been effective in preparing me for hunting with a pack. My first two years hunting I would have gladly given up 100 pounds off my 1 rep max bench or deadlift or squat to have put in miles on my legs prior to the season.

Strength is only part of the equation and as much as it sounds good to say more strength is always better, it just isn’t true. At a certain point the burdens of additional strength (additional muscle) come with too high of a price for endurance athletes or endurance style activity.

It seems a lot of these threads get hit with the argument that “when you are packing out an elk you’ll be glad you lifted weights“. Most of the guys on this site that are known elk killers seem to talk about strength training but also tons of endurance work.

We are lucky to have some super knowledgeable guys on this site with regard to strength training. 5x5 is an excellent plan. I still agree with the comment that “l‘ll out hike the world record holder in all three lifts”. I guess I would ask the obvious expert strength guys, am I missing what you are saying or do you really believe that just a 5x5 program alone is the best preparation for backcountry hunting? Thanks for all the strength training info!

Has anyone suggested that you shouldn’t bother do some hiking to prepare for hunting? I don’t think that’s the case. It’s more like the fact that strength takes a long time to accumulate and sticks with you for a good while when not training. Conditioning, on the other hand, is obtained relatively quickly and also declines very quickly when not training. With that in mind, your off season, or at least some part of your off season, is most efficiently dedicated to strength training. I’ve found, for example, that I can get in effective conditioning shape for hunting in about 3 weeks. 4 or 5 weeks is better, but 3 will suffice.

And, sure, there is a point of diminishing returns for strength, but, if you are a serious hunter, you most likely won’t ever hit that point. Similar to the powerlifting references, people will say, “why do I need a 600# deadlift?” You don’t need a 600# deadlift nor will you ever have one if you are taking long hunting trips, missing training sessions because of at all games and getting the flu. More like, you might see a ~400# deadlift at your peak strength during the off season and then lose 50-100# off of it preparing to hunt and hunting, in which case, you will appreciate having a 300# deadlift.

I hate to be so direct about this, but this whole notion of “I might get too strong if I strength training” is just ******* silly. I mean, really? You’re not going to get too strong because strength is not your singular focus. It’s a secondary element that is both beneficial for hunting and improves and enhances your quality of life, possibly even extends your quality of life by some amount of time because you’re not bent over and atrophied like so many geriatrics.

 

[LostArra]

Travis has 30 minutes a day to train and apparently does just fine on his hunts. My only suggestion would be "Carry on with whatever you're doing".

Plenty of people find elk, kill elk and get them to the truck without any of this endurance or strength training.

Having more strength or cardio conditioning though is never a bad thing for hunting or just life in general but we all have only 24 hours in a day.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

A couple things that come to mind as a retired high level athlete and being married to a professional athlete. As in any athletic activity, exercise routine and training alone will never fully prepare you for being in “game shape”.

Being able to hike steep terrain at altitude with your eyes constantly scanning is a craft that takes just getting out there and hiking to get proficient at.

I’ve had some of the most fit guys I’ve ever met come out for some backpack trips up at elevation. They were in better physical and cardiovascular condition than I am, but they couldn’t keep up in that application.

Thick skin around the hips and shoulders where your pack sits, knowing how to get the most out of your joints without compromising them while climbing steep/slippery terrain, knowing your limits at elevation, knowing your limits on pack weight over longer distances, etc.

Absolutely, go get in the gym and stay in shape! But nothing replaces field time/training specifically for your craft.

 

[JohnnyB]

Has anyone suggested that you shouldn’t bother do some hiking to prepare for hunting? I don’t think that’s the case. It’s more like the fact that strength takes a long time to accumulate and sticks with you for a good while when not training. Conditioning, on the other hand, is obtained relatively quickly and also declines very quickly when not training. With that in mind, your off season, or at least some part of your off season, is most efficiently dedicated to strength training. I’ve found, for example, that I can get in effective conditioning shape for hunting in about 3 weeks. 4 or 5 weeks is better, but 3 will suffice.

And, sure, there is a point of diminishing returns for strength, but, if you are a serious hunter, you most likely won’t ever hit that point. Similar to the powerlifting references, people will say, “why do I need a 600# deadlift?” You don’t need a 600# deadlift nor will you ever have one if you are taking long hunting trips, missing training sessions because of at all games and getting the flu. More like, you might see a ~400# deadlift at your peak strength during the off season and then lose 50-100# off of it preparing to hunt and hunting, in which case, you will appreciate having a 300# deadlift.

I hate to be so direct about this, but this whole notion of “I might get too strong if I strength training” is just ******* silly. I mean, really? You’re not going to get too strong because strength is not your singular focus. It’s a secondary element that is both beneficial for hunting and improves and enhances your quality of life, possibly even extends your quality of life by some amount of time because you’re not bent over and atrophied like so many geriatrics.

Appreciate the response and I agree with the first paragraph.

Respectfully disagree about never hitting the point of diminishing returns for strength. I am personally feeling better with less strength and less body weight than when I focused on just strength. All things being equal, I would rather have more strength but we know that things are never equal and at some point there is a tradeoff of time and weight for strength.

Lastly, we both agree that strength is a secondary element and it does have many benefits outside of hunting. I guess from reading some of the posts I didn't get the secondary message.

When you say you can get into effective conditioning shape for hunting in 3 weeks, what are you doing to get that and are you starting from zero conditioning or do you do some basic conditioning along the way?

 

[rclouse79]

Ten year ago I went on an out of state elk trip to CO with three buddies. I was pumped for the trip and got in the best shape of my life. Did more burpees than I want to remember. They had been archery hunting hard all August before I showed up for rifle. They hiked me into the ground. That was the trip that I realized the only thing that gets you ready for hiking around the mountains with a heavy pack is hiking around the mountains with a heavy pack. I agree with prior comments about the importance of getting your feet and shoulders conditioned before the season.

 

[Poser]

Appreciate the response and I agree with the first paragraph.

Respectfully disagree about never hitting the point of diminishing returns for strength. I am personally feeling better with less strength and less body weight than when I focused on just strength. All things being equal, I would rather have more strength but we know that things are never equal and at some point there is a tradeoff of time and weight for strength.

Lastly, we both agree that strength is a secondary element and it does have many benefits outside of hunting. I guess from reading some of the posts I didn't get the secondary message.

When you say you can get into effective conditioning shape for hunting in 3 weeks, what are you doing to get that and are you starting from zero conditioning or do you do some basic conditioning along the way?

So, in the winter, my focus is snowboarding. Both lift served and backcountry so I do lot of skinning and bootpacking. I’m usually riding 2 days week in Nov and early December and then Go to 3-4 days a week through April, then back to 1 or 2 days a week into May, sometimes June. I do a maintenance strength program in season but I end up pretty weak by the end. 60+ days a season.

Sometime around that transition in April, I’ll do 4-6 weeks of just strength training and pretty much nothing else except work. I’ll do a linear progression and get my strength back up to peak levels. I can usually get 50# or so back on the bar for my squat and deadlift.

Then I start mountain bike season and I get real weak. That ends abruptly at the end of August and I will start doing weekend scouting trips which also get me in shape for hunting, but I’m running another cycle linear progression (albeit slower progress due to scouting on the weekends). Then I’ll do a ~10 day hunting trip and sometimes a second one a couple of weeks later. Between them, I’ll only strength train.

After that wraps up, I do another pure cycle, usually 4-6 weeks, linear progression to get back strong as possible before snowboard season.

Basically, I do 3 strength cycles Year between seasons and try and maintain as much strength as I can during each season using Heavy-Liffey-Medium programming, but the loses can be considerable. End of hunting season, my Backsquat has been 100# below what it is at peak strength 1 month prior.

I’ll say this: I hang out in social circles full of people who pursue similar sports, pursuits etc. I have snowboard partners, I have Mtn bike partners, I have hunting partners. I have snowboard partners that I also hunt with. I have Mtn bike partners that I also snowboard with. The people who do this stuff well after their early to mid 30s and remain injury free, all put their time in the gym. The ones rhat don’t have unreliable bodies and go down with regular injuries. After 40, those injuries are usually season Enders. In fact, at this point In Life, I don’t put much of any physical reliance in people who don’t strength train in some capacity. I’ve seen it too many times. I don’t care how mentally tough you claim to be, I don’t care how far you run. If you don’t have a strong body, you’re not going to last. So, I don’t invest trust in them as a reliable partner in the backcountry (hunting, skiing, biking etc). It is a trend I have observed, I have no direct data to back that up. We could look at bone density studies etc to support it, but that’s not going to change anyone’s mind.

If your body is strong, it’s not going to take you long to get Conditioned for hunting. If you don’t want to strength train, don’t strength train. I personally don’t care. BUT, if we are going to talk about the best way to prepare the body for the rigors of elk hunting and we’re going to dismiss strength training as an effective piece of that, I’m going to call bullshit everytime. The average person only stands to benefit from being stronger: You should be stronger. You would like to be stronger. You wish you were stronger. You know you should be stronger. And the most effective way to get stronger is to strength train. If you don’t have time or desire, that’s too bad, but it doesn’t excuse the fact that you wouldn’t benefit from being stronger. The vast majority of us would at any given time. It allows you to carry heavier loads. It increases the amount of time until muscle failure. It protects your back, knees, and other weak points from potential injury. It makes your bones stronger. It makes your body more efficient at recovery. It even boosts your immune system. It teaches how to know the limitations of you’re body. It makes you harder to kill. Its practical, functional and mentally toughening. You should really be strength training and you know it.

*you = general population (not anyone in particular on this thread).

 

[jorgensen.travis]

I just did a 2 hour wrestling practice with my high school son, who’s my size. I’m 42. I don’t know anyone my age that can do that.


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[JohnnyB]

I just did a 2 hour wrestling practice with my high school son, who’s my size. I’m 42. I don’t know anyone my age that can do that.


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I think wrestling practice would kill me now. It’s been decades but I still compare exhaustion levels to how I felt after six minutes.

 

[Poser]

I just did a 2 hour wrestling practice with my high school son, who’s my size. I’m 42. I don’t know anyone my age that can do that.


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Ok. Let’s just out this in the simplest terms possible:

Would your body benefit from being stronger? Yes or no?

 

[*zap*]

A large majority of people would benefit from being stronger, leaner and having more endurance. Looking around the gym everyday I see very few people who have excelled at all 3 of those things....especially in the 'older' age group.

 

[jorgensen.travis]

Ok. Let’s just out this in the simplest terms possible:

Would your body benefit from being stronger? Yes or no?

Yes
Like I said, if I lived my life for myself and was single, I could do all of the necessary steps to optimize my performance. Strength training would be a part of it. However, I’m not a professional athlete. I’m a father, coach, husband, electrician, hunter. I don’t have time to worry about how much I can bench. I’m weighing in on this because most people I know (middle aged family men. Not athletes) complain about not having enough time. Most of them can’t do the things I can do. I’ve come up with a compromise that works for me. I’ve hiked over 20 miles in a day with 60 pounds a few times. I’ve been on multiple solo backpack hunts. I’ve packed animals out for miles. I’ve hunted all day with my camp on my back. All the things people on here want to do. More important than that. I coach my kids sports teams, bring them outdoors, try to be a good husband, take care of my house, and work more than full time to pay the bills. Human performance is a complicated subject, and whenever someone comes in like the OP talking X’s and O’s and black and white textbook stuff, I just can’t keep my mouth shut.
Sorry


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[Poser]

Yes
Like I said, if I lived my life for myself and was single, I could do all of the necessary steps to optimize my performance. Strength training would be a part of it. However, I’m not a professional athlete. I’m a father, coach, husband, electrician, hunter. I don’t have time to worry about how much I can bench. I’m weighing in on this because most people I know (middle aged family men. Not athletes) complain about not having enough time. Most of them can’t do the things I can do. I’ve come up with a compromise that works for me. I’ve hiked over 20 miles in a day with 60 pounds a few times. I’ve been on multiple solo backpack hunts. I’ve packed animals out for miles. I’ve hunted all day with my camp on my back. All the things people on here want to do. More important than that. I coach my kids sports teams, bring them outdoors, try to be a good husband, take care of my house, and work more than full time to pay the bills. Human performance is a complicated subject, and whenever someone comes in like the OP talking X’s and O’s and black and white textbook stuff, I just can’t keep my mouth shut.
Sorry


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I can respect that. If you don’t have time, then you don’t have time. Still, though, I would argue that you could dedicate that lunch hour work out to strength training for some part of the off season, even just 4-6 weeks (I know some pro road cyclists who have LONG training seasons and have to be skinny AF and do just that) and benefit from it. I’ve seen people do 4 day splits broken inTo two 20 minutes sessions, one in the morning and one in the evening. And even if you have this crazy schedule where you do not have time to effectively train, most people do have an hour 3 days a week if they prioritize it and I think that the common misconceptions are the biggest factors that prevent people from strength training and reaping the benefits:

“I don’t want to be bulky”
“I don’t want to be a bodybuilder”
“I don’t know what I’m doing and I’m not hiring a coach”
“I don’t want to be a meathead”
“I’ll just take up running instead”

There is a lot of this type of misinformation out there. People don’t understand that strength is a general adaptation, meaning that strength is transferable to functional application and skill sets and that, as you age, and your body starts to weaken, the lack of strength can be the one of the single most significant preventable factors to your decline in quality of life. If you have a strong back, you won’t end up hunched over. If you have strong hips, you won’t need help getting off the toilet. I listened to a podcast recently of a cancer survivor who, against his doctors advise, continues to train through chemo treatment and even though he lost a lot of weight and strength initially, he actually ended up weighing more at the end of chemo than when he started and his strength levels cane back up to almost the same when he finished treatment. Im just thinking about this stuff from the stand point of (unless you are a professional “skinny sport” athlete), why would you want a body that is less strong vs. more strong? In an ideal world, we would all be stronger. Some of us don’t have time to dedicate to it, but most of us do and most of us only have excuses for why we do not because the knowledge and science is readily available to support the reasoning and most of us don’t wish for the end of our lives to be filled with fear of falling down and the inability to sweep the porch or take the trash out.

Hunting be damned, how do you want the 81 year old version of yourself’s life to look like?

 

[jorgensen.travis]

I can respect that. If you don’t have time, then you don’t have time. Still, though, I would argue that you could dedicate that lunch hour work out to strength training for some part of the off season, even just 4-6 weeks (I know some pro road cyclists who have LONG training seasons and have to be skinny AF and do just that) and benefit from it. I’ve seen people do 4 day splits broken inTo two 20 minutes sessions, one in the morning and one in the evening. And even if you have this crazy schedule where you do not have time to effectively train, most people do have an hour 3 days a week if they prioritize it and I think that the common misconceptions are the biggest factors that prevent people from strength training and reaping the benefits:

“I don’t want to be bulky”
“I don’t want to be a bodybuilder”
“I don’t know what I’m doing and I’m not hiring a coach”
“I don’t want to be a meathead”
“I’ll just take up running instead”

There is a lot of this type of misinformation out there. People don’t understand that strength is a general adaptation, meaning that strength is transferable to functional application and skill sets and that, as you age, and your body starts to weaken, the lack of strength can be the one of the single most significant preventable factors to your decline in quality of life. If you have a strong back, you won’t end up hunched over. If you have strong hips, you won’t need help getting off the toilet. I listened to a podcast recently of a cancer survivor who, against his doctors advise, continues to train through chemo treatment and even though he lost a lot of weight and strength initially, he actually ended up weighing more at the end of chemo than when he started and his strength levels cane back up to almost the same when he finished treatment. Im just thinking about this stuff from the stand point of (unless you are a professional “skinny sport” athlete), why would you want a body that is less strong vs. more strong? In an ideal world, we would all be stronger. Some of us don’t have time to dedicate to it, but most of us do and most of us only have excuses for why we do not because the knowledge and science is readily available to support the reasoning and most of us don’t wish for the end of our lives to be filled with fear of falling down and the inability to sweep the porch or take the trash out.

Hunting be damned, how do you want the 81 year old version of yourself’s life to look like?

Nothing to disagree about here. Just to be clear, I’m not advocating for only running, or aerobic training. I do a hybrid type training. And I do lift when I can. In preparation for hunting season, I prioritize more time to training than 30 minutes of course. I’m 5’-8”, 180 with visible abs, so I’m no tooth pick.


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[Outlaw99]

I just wish the Moderators could make it a rule that anyone who feels the need to post a shirtless selfie on the Rok is automatically banned for life.....

 

[sandhillhunter]

Higher rep range (aka hypertrophy) is more for increasing the size of the muscle but not necessarily strength (or performance). Not to say that you won’t get stronger, but strength is not the primary outcome of that type of training. If you desire to have a pair of aesthetically pleasing looking arms, beach muscles or the likes, then, yes, you should be doing hypertrophy training in some capacity.

Not sure if I’m understanding you here, because this seems to directly contradict what I’ve always heard, i.e.

High weight low reps builds bigger muscles and strength.

Low weight high reps builds endurance.

For example, this is off a sandbag workout poster I have:

Does this contradict or confirm what you’re saying here Poser and others?



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[Poser]

Not sure if I’m understanding you here, because this seems to directly contradict what I’ve always heard, i.e.

High weight low reps builds bigger muscles and strength.

Low weight high reps builds endurance.

For example, this is off a sandbag workout poster I have:

Does this contradict or confirm what you’re saying here Poser and others?



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The poster appears to be accurate, but your wording seems confusing.

Speaking in the most general terms possible:

Heavy weight, low reps (1-5) = strength/maximal strength

Moderate weight, medium reps (8-12)= size/hypertrophy

Light weight, high reps = *endurance


That being said, doing 15-20 reps for “endurance” doesn’t mean doing 15 reps is ideal for endurance athletes, it really just translates into “gym endurance” which basically means nothing at all. Endurance athletes should ideally spend their gym time training for strength since they will benefit from being stronger (and there is a metric ton of data to support this.) The exception here might be certain accessory exercises for small muscles groups.

Also, there is some bleed over effect across most of these two ranges. A novice will get considerably stronger doing almost anything. A bodybuilder may get increased size from doing accessory movements for sets of 20 reps, getting stronger will increase your muscular endurance for submaximal movements to a certain extent since it it will buffer the time until muscle failure and some people seem to respond well to 20 rep squat programs with increased strength. Also, the body’s response to the training stress is largely dependent upon the intensity of the weight. For example, curling a pair of chopsticks for 3 sets of 10 likely won’t result in increased muscle size just because it’s sets of 10. In short, the rep ranges themselves are subordinate to the weight.

 

[WhiteOak]

Of course if you cant keep your head in the game and get out of that sleeping bag in 15 degrees 430 am sore from the day before and after a shitty sleep if wont matter one bit how "strong" you are.