Training for The Uphill Athlete Scott Johnston New Hunting Podcast

[mtnbound]

Hypothetical, just trying to figure in some light pack work throughout the year.
Would save heavier pack work until closer to the hunt.

Ok, then that would be fine but at that weight you would not be doing ME work.

 

[Truck24hr]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

 

[mtnbound]

Hard to say, you have a touch under 3% and the test is only 40 minutes. Looking at the trend another 20 minutes could have put your drift too high.

I would rerun the test with a full hour. But if you don't want to, you will probably be fine using 137 bpm.


It depends on you. I can hold lactate threshold with 90 pounds for an hour on the stairmaster and my legs feel fine. 125 starts to make my legs be what slows my pace down.

So, do it and see what limits you. If your legs don't limit your pace, then add weight until they do.

Scott says don't worry about HR (edit during ME), but an hour of zone 4 trashes my training for the week, so I do make sure my rate is not climbing too high.

I’m not sure where he states to ignore HR.
Quotes from the book.

“While nose breathing is not a perfect physiological marker, it will help you keep the intensity in check. Your goal with this technique is a feeling of distinct fatigue in your legs even at relatively low heart rates. If you are able to hike fast enough to get short of breath, you need to add more weight or pick a steeper hill.”
“The point is to have your rate of climb be limited by your legs, not by your breathing.”

 

[Marbles]

I’m not sure where he states to ignore HR.
Quotes from the book.

“While nose breathing is not a perfect physiological marker, it will help you keep the intensity in check. Your goal with this technique is a feeling of distinct fatigue in your legs even at relatively low heart rates. If you are able to hike fast enough to get short of breath, you need to add more weight or pick a steeper hill.”
“The point is to have your rate of climb be limited by your legs, not by your breathing.”

"Disregard heart rate in these ME workouts."

Muscular Endurance: All You Need to Know

Over the past 20 years I’ve written and spoken many thousands of words about Muscular Endurance training. Both Training for the New Alpinism and Training for the Uphill Athlete have entire sections of the book devoted to the topic. Articles like Vertical Beast Mode that remain on UphillAthlete.com.

evokeendurance.com

From the first paragraph in the section titled "How Much Weight".

He has also said it on multiple podcasts.

 

[mtnbound]

"Disregard heart rate in these ME workouts."

Muscular Endurance: All You Need to Know

Over the past 20 years I’ve written and spoken many thousands of words about Muscular Endurance training. Both Training for the New Alpinism and Training for the Uphill Athlete have entire sections of the book devoted to the topic. Articles like Vertical Beast Mode that remain on UphillAthlete.com.

evokeendurance.com

From the first paragraph in the section titled "How Much Weight".

He has also said it on multiple podcasts.

I believe you are misunderstanding what he means by "disregard HR". HR is not a factor in ME workouts, as he states, "While nose breathing is not a perfect physiological marker, it will help you keep the intensity in check. Your goal with this technique is a feeling of distinct fatigue in your legs even at relatively low heart rates." He also states " heavy-legs-while-going-easy feeling."

 

[Marbles]

I believe you are misunderstanding what he means by "disregard HR". HR is not a factor in ME workouts, as he states, "While nose breathing is not a perfect physiological marker, it will help you keep the intensity in check. Your goal with this technique is a feeling of distinct fatigue in your legs even at relatively low heart rates." He also states " heavy-legs-while-going-easy feeling."

Which book?

I do not see what you quote or any discussion of nose breathing during ME in Training for the Uphill Athlete. Ok, found in Training for the New Alpinism page 235.

Nose breathing=below aerobic threshold=Zone 2 and below. See page 65 of New Alpinism.

It is nonsensical to say adhere to only using one method of monitoring and the other is not a factor when both assess the same thing.

In more recent material he doesn't talk about nose breathing, only that breathing shouldn't be what limits you. Perhaps because in ME for runners and Skimo the focus is different, or perhaps because he learned more later.

He also discussed in New Alpinism on page 235 pushing the pase "to the point of breakaway breathing".

Anyway, I have repeatedly shown myself to be incapable of using breathing to effectively modulate my training.

 

[Truck24hr]

I believe you are misunderstanding what he means by "disregard HR". HR is not a factor in ME workouts, as he states, "While nose breathing is not a perfect physiological marker, it will help you keep the intensity in check. Your goal with this technique is a feeling of distinct fatigue in your legs even at relatively low heart rates." He also states " heavy-legs-while-going-easy feeling."

I think he mentions it in this video too, or something to that effect, about how his breathing is at a pace he can easily talk.

I have also heard him mention before though to not worry about HR during these ME workouts, but I've listened to him enough to understand (i think) that as he says quite often "HR and breathing should not be the limiting factor during ME work"

 

[Teaman1]

Him doing that without elevated breathing just shows me how out of shape this flatlander his haha.

 

[Marbles]

I think he mentions it in this video too, or something to that effect, about how his breathing is at a pace he can easily talk.

I have also heard him mention before though to not worry about HR during these ME workouts, but I've listened to him enough to understand (i think) that as he says quite often "HR and breathing should not be the limiting factor during ME work"

That video is really helpful when he says if you are hitting zone 3, you probably need to add more weight to the pack. It matches my experience and makes more sense.

 

[mtnbound]

Which book?

I do not see what you quote or any discussion of nose breathing during ME in Training for the Uphill Athlete. Ok, found in Training for the New Alpinism page 235.

Nose breathing=below aerobic threshold=Zone 2 and below. See page 65 of New Alpinism.

It is nonsensical to say adhere to only using one method of monitoring and the other is not a factor when both assess the same thing.

In more recent material he doesn't talk about nose breathing, only that breathing shouldn't be what limits you. Perhaps because in ME for runners and Skimo the focus is different, or perhaps because he learned more later.

He also discussed in New Alpinism on page 235 pushing the pase "to the point of breakaway breathing".

Anyway, I have repeatedly shown myself to be incapable of using breathing to effectively modulate my training.

Nasal breathing is probably the easiest field method for regulating your intensity; it doesn't require any HR devices. The next would be talking in complete sentences, both indicate you are in the correct zone. Nasal breathing is not perfect; one might have congestion or another factor that makes it difficult, but then fall back to speaking in full sentences or use an HR monitor to stay in the correct zone.

Breakaway breathing is typically conducted in Zone 3 at the top end of one's aerobic zone and is indicated by one's ability to speak only in short sentences. These are specific workouts and not to be done every time.

Training in a zone you can do for hours and hours, days and days, is the goal for most of the training time. If you can't do a workout for hours and hours or are trashed the next day, you're either undertrained or using too much intensity and are not in an aerobic zone; most likely, you have crossed into the anaerobic realm.

I think he mentions it in this video too, or something to that effect, about how his breathing is at a pace he can easily talk.

I have also heard him mention before though to not worry about HR during these ME workouts, but I've listened to him enough to understand (i think) that as he says quite often "HR and breathing should not be the limiting factor during ME work"

Breathing at an easy pace is the clue that's zone 2.

HR and breathing are not the limiting factors because you are working in a zone where you can talk in full sentences; this is a method to keep your intensity/HR in the right zone. If you do not control your intensity/HR, and it becomes increasingly difficult to talk, you are entering zones where HR and breathing become factors, and you will not be able to maintain that effort for long. Thats not the intent of ME sessions.

That video is really helpful when he says if you are hitting zone 3, you probably need to add more weight to the pack. It matches my experience and makes more sense.

Yes, because unless your workout is structured for a Breakaway Breathing or Anaerobic Threshold session, you are working at a higher HR rate needed for ME, and the longer you go, the higher your HR will creep up, and the next thing you know, you are in zone 4/5 for way too long.

I may be misinterpreting you, but I am under the impression you are loading up a pack and going hard, fast, and long for ME workouts. If that is not the case, and you are doing other specific energy system trainings, then we are on the same page, so feel free to tell me to piss off.

 

[mtwarden]

For those who are doing several Z2 training sessions per week (5-6 hrs) and want to incorporate some strength training, when have you implemented the strength sessions? I'm leaning towards 2 days of full body workouts for strength. Assume this is from someone who is just beginning to build their aerobic capacity.

Are you doing them...
- before/after Z2
- different days than Z2
- doing one in the morning and the other in the afternoon

Or.... should I just focus on Z2 and my aerobic base for a certain period and then work some strength training in later???

YMMV but I've been doing this for close to a decade and knock on wood have worked for me—lifting twice a week (a bastardized Wendler combining squats/bench on one day and deadlifts/oh press the other). I usually get my Z2 training in the morning (I'm retired so time isn't an issue ) and lift in the afternoon/evenings. Honestly I don't think it would make a ton of difference doing it in reverse.

I'm hiking almost everyday—probably 8-12 hours/week (again retired!); mostly in Zone 2, but definitely some Z3 (occasionally Z4) on steeper sections.

I don't start my ME workouts until about 10 weeks out from hunting season—I only am doing these once a week (starting w/ a low weight, progressively working up). This is the only workout I do on these days.

I backpack year round—not really a ME, but definitely some aerobic and muscular benefits.

 

[Marbles]

I may be misinterpreting you, but I am under the impression you are loading up a pack and going hard, fast, and long for ME workouts. If that is not the case, and you are doing other specific energy system trainings, then we are on the same page, so feel free to tell me to piss off.

I think for the most part we are misunderstanding each other.

The discussion was helpful though as I was not aware of the video or what the New Alpinism said about it and those align with my own experience better than just ignoring heart rate and the workouts are more productive if done below aerobic threshold (however one wants to assess that).

 

[mtwarden]

Curious for anyone who signed onto the 28 week plan, how early in that 28 weeks do they have you doing ME?

 

[thinhorn_AK]

YMMV but I've been doing this for close to a decade and knock on wood have worked for me—lifting twice a week (a bastardized Wendler combining squats/bench on one day and deadlifts/oh press the other). I usually get my Z2 training in the morning (I'm retired so time isn't an issue ) and lift in the afternoon/evenings. Honestly I don't think it would make a ton of difference doing it in reverse.

I'm hiking almost everyday—probably 8-12 hours/week (again retired!); mostly in Zone 2, but definitely some Z3 (occasionally Z4) on steeper sections.

I don't start my ME workouts until about 10 weeks out from hunting season—I only am doing these once a week (starting w/ a low weight, progressively working up). This is the only workout I do on these days.

I backpack year round—not really a ME, but definitely some aerobic and muscular benefits.

How much weight do you pack and how long are the workouts when you do your ME blocks? do you use climbs like intervals? if son, how long would you climb for ? or is this more of like say a heavy 4 mile hike?

 

[1jeds]

Curious for anyone who signed onto the 28 week plan, how early in that 28 weeks do they have you doing ME?

Weighted hikes around week 5, but the ME specific work in week 20.

 

[mtnbound]

Curious for anyone who signed onto the 28 week plan, how early in that 28 weeks do they have you doing ME?

Edit, didn't realize I hit send. Week 5 starts loaded hikes, and ME work begins week 20 and ends week 27.

 

[ThunderJack49]

Tactical (Tac) Games...not Crossfit Games lol

Overall, I don't disagree with much you said and is similar to above responses. It will be a juggling act to periodize this optimally but hopefully I can increase the volume and recover as needed to fit what I need in.

Right now I'm starting with 30-60 minutes Zone 2 in the early AM, then a lift in the PM

I have a similar background as you and then found training for the new alpinism in 2017.
Incorporating zone 2 was massively beneficial and I felt like the thing that had been missing from my training.
I also believe the tactical games are more zone 2 than people realize because you will need to control your breathing and shooting. You just also need to be strong.
Scott has a podcast with a guy who won the best ranger competition, that might be helpful for you to check out.

 

[MontyMontana]

I did not listen to the Podcast but I have a grasp of Uphill Athlete as I hired them to coach me for a very specific goal a several years ago. My life was very different and my goal was 100% my focus so take that into context..

When I started my journey with them I had a lifetime base of strength and fitness. Was performing at an almost elite level and devoted all my time and had resources to this. Trainers, coaches, doctors, nutritionist the entire gambit. When people hear zone 2 training, and it is proven to be the best path, I think they take some things for granted.. The biggest thing is TIME. I logged over 2,000 hours of zone 2 training in a 17-18 month period. That was on top of the strength, high intensity and function specific training. The results were almost superhuman but it is a little more than a few hours a couple times a week to achieve great results as people expect. And that is the tip of the proverbial iceberg. You have to have an almost perfect diet, have regular bloodwork done so you know what that diet is, and most importantly know how to recover. On top of that of you're not from and or training at elevation the road is even harder add in age and peaking at the correct time..... 100% possible as over 75% of mine was at sea-level and I was late 20's at the time.

For our specific hunting goal (and I would guess that the podcast focused on that) it is absolutely possible to get in good enough shape to not die in a 28-week period. But I would not expect to knockout 3,000 foot of elevation gain in 90 minutes, choke down a gel and do it again day in and day out for a 5–7-day period.

Absolutely not trying to discourage anyone just letting everyone know that yes zone 2 training IS the most effective mountain training in existence... It is also magnitudes greater the most time intensive.

 

[ThunderJack49]

I did not listen to the Podcast but I have a grasp of Uphill Athlete as I hired them to coach me for a very specific goal a several years ago. My life was very different and my goal was 100% my focus so take that into context..

When I started my journey with them I had a lifetime base of strength and fitness. Was performing at an almost elite level and devoted all my time and had resources to this. Trainers, coaches, doctors, nutritionist the entire gambit. When people hear zone 2 training, and it is proven to be the best path, I think they take some things for granted.. The biggest thing is TIME. I logged over 2,000 hours of zone 2 training in a 17-18 month period. That was on top of the strength, high intensity and function specific training. The results were almost superhuman but it is a little more than a few hours a couple times a week to achieve great results as people expect. And that is the tip of the proverbial iceberg. You have to have an almost perfect diet, have regular bloodwork done so you know what that diet is, and most importantly know how to recover. On top of that of you're not from and or training at elevation the road is even harder add in age and peaking at the correct time..... 100% possible as over 75% of mine was at sea-level and I was late 20's at the time.

For our specific hunting goal (and I would guess that the podcast focused on that) it is absolutely possible to get in good enough shape to not die in a 28-week period. But I would not expect to knockout 3,000 foot of elevation gain in 90 minutes, choke down a gel and do it again day in and day out for a 5–7-day period.

Absolutely not trying to discourage anyone just letting everyone know that yes zone 2 training IS the most effective mountain training in existence... It is also magnitudes greater the most time intensive.

The over arching message is that you can’t high intensity your way to great endurance performance.
Time is your best friend but some zone 2 is far better than none, even if you’re not going to be an elite athlete.
As for your experience, it’s all comparative. Nobody is running an elk to death, just trying to be fit enough to enjoy the hunt and be effective.
Two hours a week of zone 2 is going to have massive effects for people who primarily rely on high intensity or strength or a non specific sport for their general fitness.