Training for elk hunt

[Ashy Larry]

I’m sure HIIT is great, I’ve done some but not much, but i can’t fathom how it gets you in the same shape as covering miles up and down hills.

 

[ofl0926]

I’ll probably do a little of everything. I think that will be my best approach to this.


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[DavePwns]

I’ll probably do a little of everything. I think that will be my best approach to this.


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I would get a good foundation with low weight deadlifts performed slowly w/ perfect form (have someone critique you and film you in slow mo ) for 25- 30 reps in conjunction with 5 min jump rope between sets. If you are planning on packing out heavy, these two have been essential, I typically do 5 rounds and that's my workout for the day. Simple and effective.

 

[bozeman]

I didn't specifically call out aerobic conditioning.......the OP's goal was to get in shape........a total fitness program which can be attained through HIIT has advantages over many others forms........

QUOTE=Coach Chris;1052003]HIIT actually has no clear advantage over steady state cardio in terms aerobic conditioning.
As far as specific fitness for hunting (aka rucking) it has no advantage at all.
Since there is no such thing as general fitness specificity is king.

Specific conditioning for hiking with a heavy pack would be hiking with a heavy pack.

Since everything you do requires a percentage of absolute strength the next best training variable would be increasing absolute strength aka a basic strength program.[/QUOTE]

 

[ofl0926]

I would get a good foundation with low weight deadlifts performed slowly w/ perfect form (have someone critique you and film you in slow mo ) for 25- 30 reps in conjunction with 5 min jump rope between sets. If you are planning on packing out heavy, these two have been essential, I typically do 5 rounds and that's my workout for the day. Simple and effective.

That sounds like a really good workout. Are you using a straight bar or trap bar? We have both at work
Also which jump rope? I don’t own one


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[DavePwns]

That sounds like a really good workout. Are you using a straight bar or trap bar? We have both at work
Also which jump rope? I don’t own one


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I prefer straight bar and when I say go slow, I mean it. The slower you can go down with correct technique, the better core stability. And just find a jump rope that is a good length for you, specific brands aren't that important IMO

 

[bozeman]

I am from Bama and something I was NOT prepared for, side hilling. I wore Salomon GTX 4D. I am not sure how you can train for that other than actually finding some hills and walking 'side hill' on them. The horse riding was 'ok', the walking was no issue at 10k feet, but the side hilling really caught me off guard........

 

[Poser]

I prefer straight bar and when I say go slow, I mean it. The slower you can go down with correct technique, the better core stability. And just find a jump rope that is a good length for you, specific brands aren't that important IMO

Why would you just go slow with “light” weight for 25-30 reps when it would be infinitely more efficient to train maximum strength in the 5 rep range?

Specimen A goes to the gym a couple of times a week and deadlifts 185# for 25 reps super slow.

specimen B runs a very basic (and highly proven) strength program, Deadlifts 2-3x a week adding 5# to the bar each time, ending up with a 400-500# deadlift in just a few months.

Specimen A is still plugging away at the same light weight for 25 reps meanwhile specimen B could easily do 300# for 25 reps if he had the desire to. Why? Because he is much stronger than specimen A and 300# has become a very light weight for him to pull off the floor. The more weight you can pull, the lighter 185# becomes.
The guy with the 500x5 deadlift is clearly stronger than the guy with a 185x25 deadlift, so what’s the athletic benefit to doing 185x25 (or whatever “light” weight) over and over again vs. maximal strength training?

 

[DavePwns]

Why would you just go slow with “light” weight for 25-30 reps when it would be infinitely more efficient to train maximum strength in the 5 rep range?

Specimen A goes to the gym a couple of times a week and deadlifts 185# for 25 reps super slow.

specimen B runs a very basic (and highly proven) strength program, Deadlifts 2-3x a week adding 5# to the bar each time, ending up with a 400-500# deadlift in just a few months.

Specimen A is still plugging away at the same light weight for 25 reps meanwhile specimen B could easily do 300# for 25 reps if he had the desire to. Why? Because he is much stronger than specimen A and 300# has become a very light weight for him to pull off the floor. The more weight you can pull, the lighter 185# becomes.
The guy with the 500x5 deadlift is clearly stronger than the guy with a 185x25 deadlift, so what’s the athletic benefit to doing 185x25 (or whatever “light” weight) over and over again vs. maximal strength training?

Because raw power is not the goal with the high rep range. The goal is for the exercise to translate to Elk hunting and having a pack on your back, hiking for hours on end, day after day.

It just depends on your goals and what you want out of the exercises. 1-5 reps = power, 8-15 reps is hypertrophy 20+ is endurance strength. If I had to choose a hunting partner, id pick the guy with excellent endurance strength over the 3 rep max 700lb power lifter any day. Also going slow creates a longer period of time where your erector spinae and abdominals have to stabilize the weight, creating excellent body tension throughout your whole body.

 

[ofl0926]

I am from Bama and something I was NOT prepared for, side hilling. I wore Salomon GTX 4D. I am not sure how you can train for that other than actually finding some hills and walking 'side hill' on them. The horse riding was 'ok', the walking was no issue at 10k feet, but the side hilling really caught me off guard........

Yeah I live in flat Florida lol


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[Poser]

Because raw power is not the goal with the high rep range. The goal is for the exercise to translate to Elk hunting and having a pack on your back, hiking for hours on end, day after day.

It just depends on your goals and what you want out of the exercises. 1-5 reps = power, 8-15 reps is hypertrophy 20+ is endurance strength. If I had to choose a hunting partner, id pick the guy with excellent endurance strength over the 3 rep max 700lb power lifter any day. Also going slow creates a longer period of time where your erector spinae and abdominals have to stabilize the weight, creating excellent body tension throughout your whole body.

But, if we are talking direct translations, how is 25 reps at a time even close to simulating the endurance you need for the mountains where endurance is thousands upon thousands of “reps”?


Also, the stronger you are, the more time until muscle failure. I.e. the guy with the 185# Deadlift’s posterior chain will fail under a “light” weight long before the guy with the 400# deadlift using the same weight. That being the case, doesn’t the guy with the 400# deadlift not have greater overall muscle endurance than the guy with the 185# deadlift?

 

[Coach Chris]

It just depends on your goals and what you want out of the exercises. 1-5 reps = power, 8-15 reps is hypertrophy 20+ is endurance strength. If I had to choose a hunting partner, id pick the guy with excellent endurance strength over the 3 rep max 700lb power lifter any day.

Power is mass x acceleration = 1 rep as fast as possible
Hypertrophy is a matter of accumulated volume regardless of load, i.e. 3 sets of 10 and 10 sets of 3 have an identical hypertrophy response. The lifter who does 10 sets of 3 is going to be stronger.
Endurance strength in the gym doesn't directly translate to endurance strength in the mountains.
The SAID Principle dictates that the body Specifically Adapts to Demands the Imposed upon it. There's no general adaptation.
What ever lift the lifter is doing that is done for "20+" reps is going to improve the endurance strength in that specific lift.

 

[DavePwns]

But, if we are talking direct translations, how is 25 reps at a time even close to simulating the endurance you need for the mountains where endurance is thousands upon thousands of “reps”?


Also, the stronger you are, the more time until muscle failure. I.e. the guy with the 185# Deadlift’s posterior chain will fail under a “light” weight long before the guy with the 400# deadlift using the same weight. That being the case, doesn’t the guy with the 400# deadlift not have greater overall muscle endurance than the guy with the 185# deadlift?

True, if we're talking direct translation, the very best workout for elk hunting would be heavy rucking up and down steep hills on uneven terrane (the OP lives on flat ground) And more power does not mean more endurance, they are two completely different mechanisms of strength, power is anaerobic mostly type 2 muscle fibers and endurance is aerobic using primarily type 1 muscle fibers. You actually don't need much power to be an effective elk hunter (unless you are trying to drag an elk out of the forest solo haha), I'm not saying it's bad or wrong to do low rep power training in an elk hunting routine, I just think it's more important to workout your low back, quads and hip extensors in a higher rep range to increase your aerobic strength capacity and help prevent muscle fatigue. Give it a try, you'd be surprised how tired you get beyond 15 reps even at light weight. The more you do it the less fatigued you are by the end.

 

[Poser]

True, if we're talking direct translation, the very best workout for elk hunting would be heavy rucking up and down steep hills on uneven terrane (the OP lives on flat ground) And more power does not mean more endurance, they are two completely different mechanisms of strength, power is anaerobic mostly type 2 muscle fibers and endurance is aerobic using primarily type 1 muscle fibers. You actually don't need much power to be an effective elk hunter (unless you are trying to drag an elk out of the forest solo haha), I'm not saying it's bad or wrong to do low rep power training in an elk hunting routine, I just think it's more important to workout your low back, quads and hip extensors in a higher rep range to increase your aerobic strength capacity and help prevent muscle fatigue. Give it a try, you'd be surprised how tired you get beyond 15 reps even at light weight. The more you do it the less fatigued you are by the end.

Strength is the ability to apply force. Period. Put a pack on, climb a hill and your quad is applying force. The greater the weight, the steeper the hill, the more force is applied.

All things being equal, in our case, 2 people of approximate equal conditioning (in our case, hiking) and carrying the same pack weight, the guy who is stronger will have a longer time until muscular failure. In the case of comparison, is his muscle endurance not comparatively greater than the weaker guy? Yes or no?

 

[Coach Chris]

I didn't specifically call out aerobic conditioning.......the OP's goal was to get in shape........a total fitness program which can be attained through HIIT has advantages over many others forms......

That’s exactly what I pointed out.
HIIT doesn’t have any advantage over any other protocols. In fact, HIIT, due to the suffer factor, has a lower level of adherence. Which makes it a drawback.

Since the purpose of the thread is fitness for Elk hunting, which in its essence is rucking, HIIT has no benefit.

There is simply no such thing as general fitness.
The closest thing there is to general fitness is absolute strength since everything we do requires a percentage of absolute strength.

 

[Poser]

There is simply no such thing as general fitness.
The closest thing there is to general fitness is absolute strength since everything we do requires a percentage of absolute strength.

Similarly, I have come to think of strength as being the foundation of all forms of training. It tends to take a lot longer to obtain than conditioning, but it (absolute strength) is also more transferable than Conditioning and tends to stick around longer than peak states of conditioning. With that in mind, I think that most people/athletes/trainees (or whatever pool we’re talking about) tend to benefit the most from dedicating as much time as possible to maximal strength training.

If we are thinking of hunting (rucking) as being a sport, then there really isn’t much skill involved in the athletic part. By that, I mean putting a pack on and hiking is not a skill that most of us need to develop the way a football player or a rock climber needs to develop the skill set their sport requires. (Certainly hunting requires skill, but the athletic end of it doesn’t require skill practice). With that in mind, I think “training to hunt” is rather simple: get strong AF during the off season and then spend 4-10 weeks conditioning leading up to the season.

For me personally, I transition through 3 “seasons” annually: 3-5 months of mountain biking during the summer and early fall months, a hunting trip or trips during the mid Fall and 4-6 months of snowboarding during the winter and spring. Between each of those seasons, I’ll dedicate as much time as I can to running an absolute strength linear progression and then switch to an appropriate “in season” maintenance program to try and maintain as much strength as I can. The sports/pursuits themselves handle the conditioning intrinsically: mountain biking conditions me for mountain biking, snowboarding conditions me for snowboarding and scouting (rucking) conditions me for hunting.

Let’s stop kidding ourselves that Backcountry hunting is some uber complex sport like Olympic weightlifting or rock climbing where you need this highly developed set of athletic skills that requires many tens of thousands of hours of practice to develop. If you have a strong body, you can carry a heavy pack. Beyond that, you need a set of lungs and a lot of knowledge and experience. If you have a weak body, it’s going to take a lot longer to develop the strength needed to carry a heavy pack. From a physical standpoint, it’s STUPIDLY simple.

 

[jorgensen.travis]

We're all strong enough to carry a pack, so I don't see strength as a major factor (unless we're talking mental strength). We need endurance, which comes from cardiovascular efficacy. You have to force your body to adapt to being able to get oxygen to your muscles so you can keep going. By pushing yourself to the point of breathing heavily, your body will adapt and figure out how to deliver oxygen more efficiently. Bodybuilding type weight lifting is an efficient way to build muscle, but not a very good way to force cardiovascular efficiency. People will always bash things that make you breath heavy (running, HIIT, CrossFit, ect.) Because it's hard to do. Its convenient to join the gym rat crowd, Because you never really have to leave the comfort zone.

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[Coach Chris]

Endurance on a physiological level is capillary density.
The cardiovascular system responds to the demands of your skeletal muscles not vice versa.
If you want to improve endurance you need to increase capillary density in your skeletal muscle. Capillary density is best increased by time out not "sucking wind" doing intervals.
For that matter hunting (rucking) isn't purely endurance. It's strength-endurance.
If you really want to understand how to improve your efficiency in the mountains you need to understand the Strength-Endurance Continuum

Absolute Strength<->Endurance Strength<->Strength Endurance<->Absolute Endurance

If you want to improve any point on the S-E Continuum you have to improve the base which is Absolute Strength

 

[Marmots]

I grew up in pancake-flat Michigan then moved to Western Montana as soon as I was old enough. Now I live in Idaho in pretty close to the part of Oregon you are planning on hunting. The most insidious thing that happens to Flatlanders in the Rockies is joint problems.

I used to run a summer research program in Montana that took sourced students from Indiana. The thirty young folks I saw every summer ranged from fat kids to scrawny bookish types to D1 football and rugby athletes. Though folks had different levels of conditioning the great equalizer was ankle, knee, and hip problems. I got it bad when I first got out here.

The best advice I can give is obsess over your boots. Rokslide is a great resource for that.

The second best advice I can give is to identify any tightness that causes you mobility issues, then do lot of stretches. Any tightness in your hamstrings will yank your knees right out of wack after a couple days of sidehilling. Tightness in your calves can destroy an ankle, etc. Strong guys tend to carry a lot of tension in their muscles and this unfair world uses that against you. A single visit to a physical therapist will diagnose anywhere that could be a problem.

The third bit of advice is to do a lot of core work. Strong midsections take a lot of strain off your lower body. It sounds like you have this covered.

Finally, do some less glamorous excercises to isolate hips, knees and ankles. Balance on one leg and do things to progressively make it harder. Do a ton of calf raises and ankle abductions. Do every angle of leg raises even though you look like a lonesome landlocked synchronized swimmer.

 

[Coach Chris]

”......,, ankle abductions.

Do you mean pronation or supination?