Training for elk hunt

[Takem]

Endurance on a physiological level is capillary density.
The cardiovascular system responds to the demands of your skeletal muscles not vice versa.
If you want to improve endurance you need to increase capillary density in your skeletal muscle. Capillary density is best increased by time out not "sucking wind" doing intervals.
For that matter hunting (rucking) isn't purely endurance. It's strength-endurance.
If you really want to understand how to improve your efficiency in the mountains you need to understand the Strength-Endurance Continuum

Absolute Strength<->Endurance Strength<->Strength Endurance<->Absolute Endurance

If you want to improve any point on the S-E Continuum you have to improve the base which is Absolute Strength

You guys are making some good arguments toward strength training. I've always been in the camp that hiking with weight (maybe throw in a few push ups) is the best way to train for mountain hunting. I'm now 48, not as physical as I once was at work and I'm really feeling like this off season needs to include a lot more strength training. I read the article you posted, along with some others, that discussed the cardiovascular benefits of strength training. Cardiovascular health is high on my list of reasons to train and had been a big part of my preference for hiking over strength training because I thought that was the only way to get cardiovascular benefits. I don't enjoy the gym so I'm going to have to add some items to my garage. Thanks for the information.

 

[Shallow Thoughts]

I went on my first elk hunt this year and also live in Florida. I also had a severely torn ACL that was replaced when I got back from my hunt. I wasn't able to run or do a lot of dynamic movements for fear or further damage to my knee. I ended up doing a lot of rucking. I would even put my pack on and mow the yard. I think the rucking helps your back,core, shoulders and what ever else is needed in carrying 60-80lbs on your back. I also used the side of an interstate overpass to mimic hill climbs. But for the most part I did a lot of swimming (i'm not a swimmer). It's not the same kind of demand on your body as far as carrying load up and down hills but it helps your lungs.

 

[Coach Chris]

........but it helps your lungs.

It may feel like that. Your lungs are essentially just bags. Unless you're recovering from cardiac or respiratory disease breathing against water has no training effect. Especially for rucking.
Swimming only benefits swimming

 

[molliesmaster]

It may feel like that. Your lungs are essentially just bags. Unless you're recovering from cardiac or respiratory disease breathing against water has no training effect. Especially for rucking.
Swimming only benefits swimming

I think he was trying to say that swimming benefited his endurance, which it would, just as running or hiking does, but swimming has less of an impact on his joints enabling him to train with out the fear of further damaging his ACL.


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[Coach Chris]

I think he was trying to say that swimming benefited

I understand that
Swimming only benefits swimming.
Neuromuscular motor patterns are ABSOLUTELY SPECIFIC to activity.
Endurance does not happen on a cardiovascular level.
The cardiovascular system responds to the metabolic demands of the skeletal muscle. Not the vice versa.

 

[Poser]

While were myth busting, let’s talk about my favorite fitness pet peeve:

“muscle confusion”

There is no such thing as muscle confusion. Think about it: how many tasks do you quads actually perform and how could that muscle group possibly be “confused” by any single task? Muscles either pull or push and they certainly don’t get confused about which one they are expected to do.

“I like to keep the body guessing”: your body doesn’t guess, it only does what your brain tells it to do.

Building on that, one should note that there is indeed a difference between training and exercise.

 

[jorgensen.travis]

I understand that
Swimming only benefits swimming.
Neuromuscular motor patterns are ABSOLUTELY SPECIFIC to activity.
Endurance does not happen on a cardiovascular level.
The cardiovascular system responds to the metabolic demands of the skeletal muscle. Not the vice versa.

Well I guess dead lift only helps dead lift, Squat only helps squat, bench press only helps bench press,....
Wait, that's not true is it?


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[Coach Chris]

Well I guess dead lift only helps dead lift, Squat only helps squat, bench press only helps bench press,....
Wait, that's not true is it?


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Actually it is true. In fact each of the lifts are so specific to development of themselves that if you train in a partial range of motion you will only increase your lifts in that specific range.

The combined effect of increasing absolute strength through those lifts as part of a greater, more inclusive program will enhance your CNS at high threshold motor unit recruitment which increases efficiency at recruiting Type iia and Type IIb muscle fibers. Making the CNS more efficient at recruiting the Type II muscle fibers reduces the amount of metabolic demand placed on the body systemically.

Those lifts, on there own, will not enhance athleticism.

 

[Coach Chris]

While were myth busting, let’s talk about my favorite fitness pet peeve:

“muscle confusion”

There is no such thing as muscle confusion. Think about it: how many tasks do you quads actually perform and how could that muscle group possibly be “confused” by any single task? Muscles either pull or push and they certainly don’t get confused about which one they are expected to do.

“I like to keep the body guessing”: your body doesn’t guess, it only does what your brain tells it to do.

Building on that, one should note that there is indeed a difference between training and exercise.

This is one of the best posts I've seen on this forum so far.
BRAVO!!!

 

[Poser]

Actually it is true. In fact each of the lifts are so specific to development of themselves that if you train in a partial range of motion you will only increase your lifts in that specific range.

The combined effect of increasing absolute strength through those lifts as part of a greater, more inclusive program will enhance your CNS at high threshold motor unit recruitment which increases efficiency at recruiting Type iia and Type IIb muscle fibers. Making the CNS more efficient at recruiting the Type II muscle fibers reduces the amount of metabolic demand placed on the body systemically.

Those lifts, on there own, will not enhance athleticism.

The only thing that I’ll add to this is that the deadlift, the squat and the press/bench press are the most efficient ways to get strong. Those movements allow for the most weight to be moved, recruiting the most muscle over an effective range of motion, thus creating the most stress on the body. Since virtually every exercise the body performs is some kind of variation of a squat, press and/or a pull, and since these parent movements utilizing a barbell generate the most stress on the body, performing these movements in some kind of organized sequence and profession is the most efficient way to make the body generally strong. How you apply that strength from there be it in highly skilled sport and agility or just walking around in life, is a different matter. If you know that you need a strong body as the foundation of your sport, then those movements are the direct path to that foundation, however, you’re still going to have to develop the necessary skill set to properly apply that strength.

Fortunately for us, hunting/rucking doesn’t require much physical “skill” at all, however a strong set of legs allow you to apply more force for longer, strong spinal erectors allow you to stay upright for longer under the load of a pack and strong shoulders just might spare your collarbone in the event of a fall while wearing a pack. Get strong and be able to hike for a long time and you really shouldn’t have to put much thought into “training to hunt” at all. You’re not preparing for an Olympic time trial, you won’t have to make a one arm catch, you won’t be throwing kegs over a 20 foot barrier, or perform a one legged overhead squat while balancing on a bus ball: you just need to be able to put on a potentially heavy pack and go. That’s it. Since you don’t have to spend an inordinate amount of time developing all of those finally honed physical skills, you have plenty of time to strength train and hike. There’s really no mystery here at all.

 

[jorgensen.travis]

Endurance does not happen on a cardiovascular level.


Really?
That's a ridiculous statement.
Coach Chis give us a weekly program of what you feel is appropriate of a middle aged man trying to get into shape. Let's define being in shape as being able to run 10 miles, walk 20 miles with 50 lbs on your back, do 100 burpees in 5 minutes, and have very little belly fat.

I could believe that your point of view is swayed by dealing with people that are already athletes trying to improve this or that. But for the average middle aged man trying to get into backcountry hunting shape, what's your program?

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[Coach Chris]

As I've explained before, the cardio-vascular system responds to the demands placed on the skeletal-muscle not vice versa.
Endurance is capillary density on a physiological level.

being able to run 10 miles, walk 20 miles with 50 lbs on your back, do 100 burpees in 5 minutes, and have very little belly fat.

What purpose does running 10mi or burpees serve?

But for the average middle aged man trying to get into backcountry hunting shape, what's your program?

I'm 51, 6'1.75", 200lbs, very lean
The easiest way for me to answer this is to share my basic training program.
All year 'round I train for absolute strength and maintain a base level of endurance.
At the end of hunting season I strength train 3-4 days a week.
For absolute strength development I focus on basic compound lifts, i.e. squat, deadlift, bench press and overhead press.
For endurance-strength I focus on kettlebell complexes, kettlebell swings, push-ups, pull-ups, inverted rows, etc....
For strength-endurance and absolute endurance I hike, splitboard and snow bike 3-4 days a week
For mobility I train Muay Thai, BJJ/Wrestling and Filipino Martial Arts several times per week.

As the snow begins to melt out in the spring I cut my strength training back to 2 days a week.
For endurance-strength I supplement in sled drags and Prowler pushes 2 days a week. I load them up to my bodyweight and try to cover 500yds in less than 25min.
I keep hiking and biking 3-4 days a week

Once the trails are dry I keep strength training 2 days a week
For my endurance-strength I switch my sled work to rucking a heavy pack 2 days a week.
Day 1 - I ruck 40% of my bodyweight for 3-4hrs (7-8mi.) and gain 1,500 vert ft.
Day 2 - This is my heavy day. I start with 50% of my bodyweight for 1/2 the distance and vert as day 1. My goal for this day is to work up to 75% of my bodyweight by the start of the season while maintaining the distance and vert.
I continue to hike (scouting) and bike 3-4 days a week.

My bike rides are primarily to exercise my dog as well as serve as active recovery for me.

When Mule Deer season started I was up to 12mi., 1780' of loss/gain with an 85# pack in 4hrs for Day 1 and Day 2 was 3.5mi, 700' loss/gain with a 115# pack in 90min.

My diet is fairly strict by most people's standards. I weigh and measure all my meals. I track my kcals with the FitGenie app. I don't drink.

My biggest day this past elk season was 25mi. over 7,000' of loss/gain with an average pack weight of about 45#

 

[DavePwns]

As I've explained before, the cardio-vascular system responds to the demands placed on the skeletal-muscle not vice versa.
Endurance is capillary density on a physiological level.
What purpose does running 10mi or burpees serve?


I'm 51, 6'1.75", 200lbs, very lean
The easiest way for me to answer this is to share my basic training program.
All year 'round I train for absolute strength and maintain a base level of endurance.
At the end of hunting season I strength train 3-4 days a week.
For absolute strength development I focus on basic compound lifts, i.e. squat, deadlift, bench press and overhead press.
For endurance-strength I focus on kettlebell complexes, kettlebell swings, push-ups, pull-ups, inverted rows, etc....
For strength-endurance and absolute endurance I hike, splitboard and snow bike 3-4 days a week
For mobility I train Muay Thai, BJJ/Wrestling and Filipino Martial Arts several times per week.

As the snow begins to melt out in the spring I cut my strength training back to 2 days a week.
For endurance-strength I supplement in sled drags and Prowler pushes 2 days a week. I load them up to my bodyweight and try to cover 500yds in less than 25min.
I keep hiking and biking 3-4 days a week

Once the trails are dry I keep strength training 2 days a week
For my endurance-strength I switch my sled work to rucking a heavy pack 2 days a week.
Day 1 - I ruck 40% of my bodyweight for 3-4hrs (7-8mi.) and gain 1,500 vert ft.
Day 2 - This is my heavy day. I start with 50% of my bodyweight for 1/2 the distance and vert as day 1. My goal for this day is to work up to 75% of my bodyweight by the start of the season while maintaining the distance and vert.
I continue to hike (scouting) and bike 3-4 days a week.

My bike rides are primarily to exercise my dog as well as serve as active recovery for me.

When Mule Deer season started I was up to 12mi., 1780' of loss/gain with an 85# pack in 4hrs for Day 1 and Day 2 was 3.5mi, 700' loss/gain with a 115# pack in 90min.

My diet is fairly strict by most people's standards. I weigh and measure all my meals. I track my kcals with the FitGenie app. I don't drink.

My biggest day this past elk season was 25mi. over 7,000' of loss/gain with an average pack weight of about 45#

Those are some impressive elevation numbers with weight, on average how many calories do you pack per day on a 5-7 day hunt?

 

[Coach Chris]

Those are some impressive elevation numbers with weight, on average how many calories do you pack per day on a 5-7 day hunt?

Do to work demands I haven't had a chance to hunt more than 2-3 days a week for a long time. Hunting season comes at a bad time of year for me since it's in season still for my ultra-runners, pre-season for my snow sports athletes and off season for my mountaineers.

 

[jorgensen.travis]

As I've explained before, the cardio-vascular system responds to the demands placed on the skeletal-muscle not vice versa.
Endurance is capillary density on a physiological level.
What purpose does running 10mi or burpees serve?


I'm 51, 6'1.75", 200lbs, very lean
The easiest way for me to answer this is to share my basic training program.
All year 'round I train for absolute strength and maintain a base level of endurance.
At the end of hunting season I strength train 3-4 days a week.
For absolute strength development I focus on basic compound lifts, i.e. squat, deadlift, bench press and overhead press.
For endurance-strength I focus on kettlebell complexes, kettlebell swings, push-ups, pull-ups, inverted rows, etc....
For strength-endurance and absolute endurance I hike, splitboard and snow bike 3-4 days a week
For mobility I train Muay Thai, BJJ/Wrestling and Filipino Martial Arts several times per week.

As the snow begins to melt out in the spring I cut my strength training back to 2 days a week.
For endurance-strength I supplement in sled drags and Prowler pushes 2 days a week. I load them up to my bodyweight and try to cover 500yds in less than 25min.
I keep hiking and biking 3-4 days a week

Once the trails are dry I keep strength training 2 days a week
For my endurance-strength I switch my sled work to rucking a heavy pack 2 days a week.
Day 1 - I ruck 40% of my bodyweight for 3-4hrs (7-8mi.) and gain 1,500 vert ft.
Day 2 - This is my heavy day. I start with 50% of my bodyweight for 1/2 the distance and vert as day 1. My goal for this day is to work up to 75% of my bodyweight by the start of the season while maintaining the distance and vert.
I continue to hike (scouting) and bike 3-4 days a week.

My bike rides are primarily to exercise my dog as well as serve as active recovery for me.

When Mule Deer season started I was up to 12mi., 1780' of loss/gain with an 85# pack in 4hrs for Day 1 and Day 2 was 3.5mi, 700' loss/gain with a 115# pack in 90min.

My diet is fairly strict by most people's standards. I weigh and measure all my meals. I track my kcals with the FitGenie app. I don't drink.

My biggest day this past elk season was 25mi. over 7,000' of loss/gain with an average pack weight of about 45#

That's a killer workout.
No doubt that will get you ready.

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[Coach Chris]

That's a killer workout.
No doubt that will get you ready.

To be fair, with the exception of the rucking, the rest is lifestyle for me.
I'm a former pro-athlete so training and life are inseparable for me. It's what I've done since I was a little kid.
I do have to put forth the discipline to cut back on my strength training and hard martial arts training in favor of humping a heavy pack.
My education makes it easier. That doesn't make it suck less.

 

[Ridge Ghost]

Similarly, I have come to think of strength as being the foundation of all forms of training. It tends to take a lot longer to obtain than conditioning, but it (absolute strength) is also more transferable than Conditioning and tends to stick around longer than peak states of conditioning. With that in mind, I think that most people/athletes/trainees (or whatever pool we’re talking about) tend to benefit the most from dedicating as much time as possible to maximal strength training.

If we are thinking of hunting (rucking) as being a sport, then there really isn’t much skill involved in the athletic part. By that, I mean putting a pack on and hiking is not a skill that most of us need to develop the way a football player or a rock climber needs to develop the skill set their sport requires. (Certainly hunting requires skill, but the athletic end of it doesn’t require skill practice). With that in mind, I think “training to hunt” is rather simple: get strong AF during the off season and then spend 4-10 weeks conditioning leading up to the season.

For me personally, I transition through 3 “seasons” annually: 3-5 months of mountain biking during the summer and early fall months, a hunting trip or trips during the mid Fall and 4-6 months of snowboarding during the winter and spring. Between each of those seasons, I’ll dedicate as much time as I can to running an absolute strength linear progression and then switch to an appropriate “in season” maintenance program to try and maintain as much strength as I can. The sports/pursuits themselves handle the conditioning intrinsically: mountain biking conditions me for mountain biking, snowboarding conditions me for snowboarding and scouting (rucking) conditions me for hunting.

Let’s stop kidding ourselves that Backcountry hunting is some uber complex sport like Olympic weightlifting or rock climbing where you need this highly developed set of athletic skills that requires many tens of thousands of hours of practice to develop. If you have a strong body, you can carry a heavy pack. Beyond that, you need a set of lungs and a lot of knowledge and experience. If you have a weak body, it’s going to take a lot longer to develop the strength needed to carry a heavy pack. From a physical standpoint, it’s STUPIDLY simple.

What program are you running for in-season strength maintenance? I did the 5/3/1 2x a week template during hunting season this year, but even that started to feel like a lot of gym time for in-season once you throw in accessory work, etc.

 

[Coach Chris]

What program are you running for in-season strength maintenance? I did the 5/3/1 2x a week template during hunting season this year, but even that started to feel like a lot of gym time for in-season once you throw in accessory work, etc.

I'm a big fan of Wendler's 5/3/1
In season I also follow a 2 day split. I drop almost all accessory work
Day 1 - Deadlift, Overhead Press and barbell row
Day 2 - Squat, Bench Press and weighted pull up
Main lifts are 5/3/1, row and pull up are 3 x 10. I run all 3 lifts in a circuit.

 

[Ridge Ghost]

I'm a big fan of Wendler's 5/3/1
In season I also follow a 2 day split. I drop almost all accessory work
Day 1 - Deadlift, Overhead Press and barbell row
Day 2 - Squat, Bench Press and weighted pull up
Main lifts are 5/3/1, row and pull up are 3 x 10. I run all 3 lifts in a circuit.

Gotcha. This seems much more do-able by dropping the accessory stuff. A long weekend of elk hunting, 5/3/1 lifts, and then 5-ish rounds of either Boring But Big or First Set Last for each main lift really started to feel like too much volume.

So the wheels don't start to fall off of your lifts when you aren't doing accessory work for a few months?

 

[Coach Chris]

So the wheels don't start to fall off of your lifts when you aren't doing accessory work for a few months?

No, in fact I hit a 95% back squat PR on my last training cycle. I've been running my "in season" split since the end of August.
I switch back to a 3 day split next week and I'll run that until March when I go back to 4 days