Tragic bear attack

[Vandy321]

People tend to dismiss data that doesn’t align with their already held beliefs.

Data or claims? They are not one in the same. The article said 54 "claims"...didn't see anything proven and no actual "data", meaning fact.

 

[landman650]

By the osha recommendation, it sounds like the outfitter may not have allowed it’s guides to carry one chambered?

 

[landman650]

Hunter in Texas just had a ND and killed his 11 year old daughter. It happens. Saying that proper training reduces the probability of a ND to zero is asinine. Nothing has a probability of zero.

This study found 300 unique cases in the news in 2 years. And that's only ND's that are reported on in the news. Probably 10x as many that weren't reported on.

300 Negligent Discharges Study: The Shocking Results » Concealed Carry Inc

We studied 300 news stories about negligent discharges. The stats and numbers from these stats break down, where, to whom, and why these shootings happen.

www.concealedcarry.com

Unless that was a ricochet… the barrel never should have been pointed at his daughter.

 

[Dos Perros]

Data or claims? They are not one in the same. The article said 54 "claims"...didn't see anything proven and no actual "data", meaning fact.

You asked for a documented case, I provided one.

 

[Vandy321]

You asked for a documented case, I provided one.

You called it data...it is not. A pending lawsuit is not a documented case, its an allegation.

You know the whole "innocent until procen guilty" thing...

 

[z987k]

Haven't read through all of this but this is why I carry a wheel gun in bear country.
I keep the hammer on an empty but in an instant can trigger onto a chambered round, whereas pulling a slide could be a bridge too far.
Sad deal.

Do you carry a really old wheel gun without a hammer block?

Seems to me that's a thing from a bygone era, but I'm open to why carrying all 6 in a modern wheel gun isn't safe.

 

[z987k]

You called it data...it is not. A pending lawsuit is not a documented case, its an allegation.

You know the whole "innocent until procen guilty" thing...

Well it's a civil suit, so no guilt will be proven. The bar to clear is also less to find in favor of the plaintiff.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

This article scared the crap out of me as it could happen to anybody on here after shooting an animal in bear country. In retrospect, after shooting my bull this past Sep, I took off my bino harness and my .357 holster is attached to it. The guide laid his .45-70 guide gun on the ground a short distance away. We caped, gutted, and quartered the bull with only our knives in hand. He may have been keep an eye on things, but I was so caught up in the moment I wasn't even thinking about bears until he said the grizzlies would be on the carcass by nightfall.

Next time I will be more careful for sure.

I was carrying with all 7 rounds loaded.

 

[WCB]

Detective sues Sig Sauer after she says her holstered P320 handgun nearly killed her

Gunmaker has previously denied liability for similar claims involving the P320.

abcnews.go.com

"Hilton’s $15 million lawsuit said, “there have been 54 reported uncommanded discharges of the P320,” meaning the gun went off by itself, over the last five years in 22 states and Washington, D.C."

Sig says a foreign object entered the trigger guard area despite it being holstered. Probably can't trust 100% either side, but the point remains and is indisputable: sometimes people get shot.

The best point made in this entire thread against the not carrying hot argument is that the act of unloading/loading is risky in and of itself.

I think it is kind misleading the article stating there are 54 reports on the P320 for this and then kind of stating that no other firearm has a large amount of report of similar instances. I can name off the top of my head some serious issues with certain firearms that I guarantee have many times more "reported" issues. They just don't seem to go to litigation though.

I also find it funny that she states it is "not credible" that police officers are shooting themselves. While I have a TON of respect for law enforcement...MOST are not highly trained or highly efficient with firearms....

Ah the old, "The gun just went off" excuse.

Buy it or not, that's just another data point that if you're going to carry a semi-auto, it should probably be a glock.

Seen reports/accusations with Glocks for the same thing. I have also "investigated" the incidents as part of my job. (I do not work for Glock but in the shooting industry)

To the ND discussion...sure, parts fail, mechanical safeties fail. But even with a safety that has failed, how do you ND a pistol when it's in the holster?

Can someone provide a documented case of a pistol ND in the holster? Not taking about an ND while drawing or holsterimg, but an ND simply from having a round chambered and the pistol holstered.

I just don't see data to support the fear of ND as a logical reason to not have a round chambered in bear country, or ever.

I can't share the "documents" but I have been part of a few "reports" on similar instances. Customer not drawing or holstering but gun "just went off". Things CAN get into the holster and movement or shifting of the wearer can cause the weapon to discharge.

#1 cause of this that I have seen(can happen while holster or after) is the little bungie pull tighteners on the bottoms of jackets get caught in the trigger guard while holstering. Firearm can discharge while being holstered or after if the cord is then pulled or put under more tension. So technically the wearer would think "I didn't pull the trigger". Their finger may not have but their clothing did.

Mechanical things CAN fail.

This goes along with guys that say xyz gun can't fire out of battery...Absolute B.S.

 

[Bighorse]

As the refs say in the cage.....control your weapons, defend yourself at all times
We are engaging in high risk predatorial activities.
I personally use a 41mag wheel gun with 265g hardcast's. I've hunted with it and have it as a packing/backup weapon.
When i'm processing game, my rifle is near my workspace and accessible. Its a required tool for the job like my knife. I will even practice presentation and know how I'm going to reach it and the condition of the chamber. I know multiple hunters in SE AK that have had real risky encounters. Some made the news. Some just got mentioned around a fire.
All that said.....Bears are fast! Boye!!!!
Stay safe and leave the chewing to the dinner table.

 

[Dos Perros]

You called it data...it is not. A pending lawsuit is not a documented case, its an allegation.

You know the whole "innocent until procen guilty" thing...

Data is data.

Here we know a trained professional had a loaded gun go off and nearly kill her. It doesn’t matter if it was holstered or not, human error or mechanical failure. The FACT remains that loaded guns sometimes unintentionally shoot people. That’s the total risk one should be concerned about, and the relative probability*impact value compared to having just slightly slower access to a loaded weapon in a bear attack. That’s the calculation to make. And the inputs are always changing depending on the scenario.

 

[JohnJohnson]

Carrying a defensive firearm without a round in the chamber seems like a leftover tradition from when transfer bar safeties didn't exist in revolvers. To carry a semi-automatic pistol without a round chambered comes off as useless. I don't care if you think you can rack the slide quickly. Too many variables are at play in a self defense scenario, one of which is your non-firing hand may be busy keeping a furry monster off of you while your other hand draws your firearm. If you're that worried about it take the advice mentioned earlier in this thread and carry a double action revolver without a round under the hammer. Then everyone's happy.

 

[Fatcamp]

I think it is kind misleading the article stating there are 54 reports on the P320 for this and then kind of stating that no other firearm has a large amount of report of similar instances. I can name off the top of my head some serious issues with certain firearms that I guarantee have many times more "reported" issues. They just don't seem to go to litigation though.

I also find it funny that she states it is "not credible" that police officers are shooting themselves. While I have a TON of respect for law enforcement...MOST are not highly trained or highly efficient with firearms....

Seen reports/accusations with Glocks for the same thing. I have also "investigated" the incidents as part of my job. (I do not work for Glock but in the shooting industry)

I can't share the "documents" but I have been part of a few "reports" on similar instances. Customer not drawing or holstering but gun "just went off". Things CAN get into the holster and movement or shifting of the wearer can cause the weapon to discharge.

#1 cause of this that I have seen(can happen while holster or after) is the little bungie pull tighteners on the bottoms of jackets get caught in the trigger guard while holstering. Firearm can discharge while being holstered or after if the cord is then pulled or put under more tension. So technically the wearer would think "I didn't pull the trigger". Their finger may not have but their clothing did.

Mechanical things CAN fail.

This goes along with guys that say xyz gun can't fire out of battery...Absolute B.S.

A good point to make here is that if you are going to carry a pistol you should cut those things off your coats. Rookie stuff there.

And holstering weapons is dangerous, need to pay attention. Honestly, with IWB holster they should be removed prior to reholstering.

 

[mwebs]

Well I got a G40 gen 4 with only the trigger safety. Ivory holster for the pack, pretty sure I feel fine with it loaded even though I wouldn’t really call that safety a safety.

 

[Dos Perros]

False again, loaded guns don't just go bang. Let's stop pretending the gun just "went off". In this case the lady had a holstered gun flopping around loose in her purse...and she wants to blame the gun for getting something caught in the trigger guard and firing? That's laughable.

It doesn’t matter why the gun went bang, just that it did.

 

[bsnedeker]

It doesn’t matter why the gun went bang, just that it did.

We've got ourselves a "Guns kill people" person here fellas! We should ban all guns because they are VEWY SCAWEY!!!!

 

[Doc Holliday]

This terrible story was thoroughly discussed back when it happened. Surprised someone felt the need to repost it 3 years later....

I followed this story closely and read all of the reports. My view is that the client had no business on a hunt like that. First of all he made a poor shot on a game animal, then folded under pressure and ran when his fellow man needed his help. I think most of us assume our fellow brethren know how to rack a round into a semi auto pistol.....apparently that's too high a standard these days.

 

[Whisky]

A good point to make here is that if you are going to carry a pistol you should cut those things off your coats. Rookie stuff there.

And holstering weapons is dangerous, need to pay attention. Honestly, with IWB holster they should be removed prior to reholstering.

That is exactly why I'm not comfortable carrying hot. Holstering IWB, 4-5 oclock, I can't see what I'm doing. I've missed the holster on more than one occasion.

I've made it part way through that thread you linked earlier to the story. Page 8 or so.

 

[Fatcamp]

That is exactly why I'm not comfortable carrying hot. Holstering IWB, 4-5 oclock, I can't see what I'm doing. I've missed the holster on more than one occasion.

I've made it part way through that thread you linked earlier to the story. Page 8 or so.

It is quite a story. Lots of very experienced people share knowledge in it. That place used to be pretty amazing.

 

[bsnedeker]

That is exactly why I'm not comfortable carrying hot. Holstering IWB, 4-5 oclock, I can't see what I'm doing. I've missed the holster on more than one occasion.

I've made it part way through that thread you linked earlier to the story. Page 8 or so.

And that is why I carry appendix, but I realize that doesn't work for everyone. I also use a holster the securely clips to my belt so if I do need to reholster I just pull the holster, put the gun in, and then put the holster back in. It's not like I'm drawing my weapon multiple times a day...more likely zero times per day.

Another thing to think about: They do make conceal carry pistols with manual safeties if you aren't comfortable carrying "hot". I'd MUCH rather have to flip of a safety than try to rack a slide as you can do the former with one hand. I really like the safeties on Sigs personally (I don't own one, have just handled them and like the ergos).