Traditional Muzzleloader Shooters timid?

[HighUintas]

Numerous states have already addressed that issue. As I've mentioned in CO we have to use open sights and full bore projectiles (50cal for elk and moose off memory) with loose black powder. The only advantage tech offers is a 209primer right behind the powder.

Yes, I'm referring to states that allow 209, scopes, etc during the regular ML season

 

[BRTreedogs]

Yes, I'm referring to states that allow 209, scopes, etc during the regular ML season

What western state allows that now?

Midwest whitetail states?

Who cares, there’s plenty of those.

 

[idelkslayer]

All you have to do is restrict it to open sights.
99 % of muzzloader hunter aren’t shooting over 100 yards with open sights.

Regardless of ignition,powder or bullets allowed.

The only people that are is the dedicated few. And there dedicated enough to do it with whatever pos muzzleloader you put in there hands.

Restrictinging it all the way down to side lock doesn’t equal less animals killed.

I disagree. If projectile/powder/ignition doesn't matter then why not allow centerfire rifles with open sights? Or single-shot centerfires with open sights if you want to argue the "one shot" perspective?

I do think that creating seasons for muzzleloaders did have its origin in hobbyists wanting a separate season so as not to be at a disadvantage to modern rifles during the same time period. Inlines came along in response to make hunting those seasons easier. Nobody was producing inlines before there was the incentive of muzzleloader seasons.

Nowadays it seems that the management purpose has shifted to creating seasons to increase hunting opportunity while keeping success rates lower than modern weapons. In order to preserve that purpose there needs to be limits on what level of technology should be allowed during those seasons.

I'm a sidelock guy because I love the history. I don't dress up for it, I wear modern clothing and use binoculars but I do enjoy using my sidelocks. I'm not opposed to other hunters using in-line muzzleloaders. I think the essential elements that should be required match closely with Idaho's rules. Primarily:

Open sights
Loose powder
Full diameter lead projectile (no sabots)
Flint, percussion, or musket cap (no 209 primers)
Exposed ignition

Some of it is just for the sake of difficulty and to discourage too many hunters from participating.

 

[BRTreedogs]

I disagree. If projectile/powder/ignition doesn't matter then why not allow centerfire rifles with open sights? Or single-shot centerfires with open sights if you want to argue the "one shot" perspective?

I do think that creating seasons for muzzleloaders did have its origin in hobbyists wanting a separate season so as not to be at a disadvantage to modern rifles during the same time period. Inlines came along in response to make hunting those seasons easier. Nobody was producing inlines before there was the incentive of muzzleloader seasons.

Nowadays it seems that the management purpose has shifted to creating seasons to increase hunting opportunity while keeping success rates lower than modern weapons. In order to preserve that purpose there needs to be limits on what level of technology should be allowed during those seasons.

I'm a sidelock guy because I love the history. I don't dress up for it, I wear modern clothing and use binoculars but I do enjoy using my sidelocks. I'm not opposed to other hunters using in-line muzzleloaders. I think the essential elements that should be required match closely with Idaho's rules. Primarily:

Open sights
Loose powder
Full diameter lead projectile (no sabots)
Flint, percussion, or musket cap (no 209 primers)
Exposed ignition

Some of it is just for the sake of difficulty and to discourage too many hunters from participating.

That’s exactly what my Oregon inline is.

It’s all those requirements.

 

[idelkslayer]

That’s exactly what my Oregon inline is.

It’s all those requirements.

I disagreed with your statement that all that matters is open sights. And then I elaborated on why I think other elements are also important.

 

[dsotm]

Wait until some of you find out that there have been advances in the centerfire world that allow people to more consistently shoot at greater distances also, perhaps we should ban everything modern equipment and go back to trad bows and spears.

 

[jimh406]

Wait until some of you find out that there have been advances in the centerfire world that allow people to more consistently shoot at greater distances also, perhaps we should ban everything modern equipment and go back to trad bows and spears.

There are already firearm restrictions like caliber in some states. There are also restrictions for lighted optics and weight limits in some jurisdictions as well as straight wall caliber restrictions and gun type restrictions.

Of course, there have also been magazine capacity limits for rifles and shotguns.

 

[Bluefish]

Honestly I like the Colorado regulations. I think it’s a good balance of why is there a different season for ML and no so obscure that people can’t go down to the local big box gun store and get a gun. With open sights, loose powder, and full 50 cal bore projectiles it’s not going to be a long range hunting rifle dressed up as a ML. The season is earlier so animals are less pressured. Seems like a good solution to me.

Note that I did live in Colorado and now am in a state that allows optics, so my ML wears a scope. I would gladly go back to open sights if the regulations changed.

 

[Mtndawger]

The whole bow vs crossbow thing is just a machismo pissing match. Seriously. One of those does NOT shoot further than the other, nor is it more accurate in the hands of an accomplished shooter. It's still archery.

I'd say that the muzzleloading thing is getting a bit ( a lot?) more complicated. "Muzzleloader" is starting to be a really gray area. A side lock with 70gr ffg and a Knight Disc with 70gr ffg and a 300 gr slug are on close to equal footing, especially if both are open sight or if both are scoped. A custom bolt action with a brass module for ignition, with a heavy load of smokeless, a 4-20 scope with dials, and the same 300 gr slug is a completely different machine, offering smokeless centerfire performance and reliability. I mean, a 300 gr slug at 2500 FPS or more is various 338 to 375 mag territory.

I personally think that the moniker of "muzzleloader season" should be changed to "blackpowder season". During black powder season, anything is fine as long as it's using blackpowder or a blackpowder substitute. And NO, I don't think BH209 is a blackpowder substitute. Same thing with the Firestick modules, and some states agree, saying they're not legal in their season.

I personally think that someone should be permitted to hunt with whatever they want, whenever they want. So to each their own, but I think that the smokeless thing is really going to get the primitive/blackpowder/muzzleloeader seasons all jacked up with more restrictions across the board.

Well said

 

[long hunter]

Why isn’t anyone asking to restrict traditional more to prevent wound loss?

To be fair to the animals don’t they deserve a more effective method of take?

I’m sure they would prefer and fast death from a modern fire arm vs a round ball blowing there leg off by some Daniel Boone wanna be, that wants to keep it pure.

Where are the at lattle/ Speer hunters tell the those more modern “traditional “ muzzle loaders to F off?

If you want to be traditional keep that modern black powder round ball crap out of here.

Sharpen a rock and tie it to a stick and stab a critter to death.

Why not restrict all archery methods as to wounding an animal, seems you have no ideal how a pure lead round ball situated over say 90 gr. Of 3-f black powder in the traditional firearm used bye a competent hunter can do for a clean kill on a animal perhaps you should do some reading on these types of weapons and there use, along with the original intent of the hunting seasons designed for them before the bastardization of the in-line gang. Just saying.

 

[jimh406]

People wound animals and lose them with all types of weapons.

 

[HighUintas]

Wait until some of you find out that there have been advances in the centerfire world that allow people to more consistently shoot at greater distances also, perhaps we should ban everything modern equipment and go back to trad bows and spears.

We absolutely should.

Not really, but I think there ought to be restrictions on all methods of take that restrict range.

 

[BRTreedogs]

Why not restrict all archery methods as to wounding an animal, seems you have no ideal how a pure lead round ball situated over say 90 gr. Of 3-f black powder in the traditional firearm used bye a competent hunter can do for a clean kill on a animal perhaps you should do some reading on these types of weapons and there use, along with the original intent of the hunting seasons designed for them before the bastardization of the in-line gang. Just saying.

Or
Maybe
Just
Maybe

I like to get under peoples skin on the internet.

I could care less what others do.

The only thing I care about them doing is trying to take away from me.

But if you want to larp around the woods being a Daniel Boone wanna be go ahead.

But if those round balls are so effective why are the chickens so afraid of an inline horning in in there action.

You should see what a 420 lead conical can do.

 

[BRTreedogs]

Do you all really think modern/more effective methods of take are effecting heard populations enough that you are loosing opportunity at animals?

So by restricting them all of a sudden you will have much more opportunity at more or more mature animals?

Or are inline hunters shooting the animals rite out from in front of you while your closing the last 50 yards?

Because your ether good enough to get opportunities at animals or your not. But I don’t see how another hunter using and inline somewhere else in the unit is going to effect you.

 

[jimh406]

But I don’t see how another hunter using and inline somewhere else in the unit is going to effect you.

The way it could affect someone is for more people to start hunting with multiple weapons because inlines are more available. That could lead to more harvest and less opportunity for the other weapon types. That's especially true if you don't have to choose "one" weapon for the year.

Also, if more people are out during muzzleloader maybe more shoot that great buck someone was wanting to shoot during the firearms season.

But, there is nothing to prevent you from using a muzzleloader during firearm season, so it would work both ways. Why do you need to hunt during muzzleloader season or have a special season?

That being said, I don't care what you use as long as it's legal.

 

[Mtndawger]

I don't believe it is so simple as picking winners and losers based on technology. Given the increasing pressure from Anti hunters and the like, the last thing anyone needs to do in the hunting space is demonize another based on the weapon of choice. How is denouncing another hunter for that any different than an anti wanting to take away your right to hunt? This is a separate question from whether or not technology should be limited in a given season. Limiting technology modulates demand and harvest alike. The answer probably lies within the changing big game management goals and objectives of each state. I live in Colorado and what has occurred to our hunting scene since the "Covid Bump" has been a scary thing to witness. The boom in hunter numbers along with the boom in population growth in general has got our big game herds on the decline. And it's got us hunters attacking each other. Even here with the largest elk population in the country it's clear in many areas the animals can't take the pressure and the only answer is to reduce overall tag sales. Whatever the cynics choose to believe, there is also very clearly a balance between offering enough opportunity to keep hunters in the game and bringing in enough revenue to manage the herds. The non resident bump that many western states have "enjoyed" is likely to end at some point and then declining numbers of resident hunters won't be able to finance the whole enterprise without drastically raising fees.

 

[Mtndawger]

Do you all really think modern/more effective methods of take are effecting heard populations enough that you are loosing opportunity at animals?

So by restricting them all of a sudden you will have much more opportunity at more or more mature animals?

Or are inline hunters shooting the animals rite out from in front of you while your closing the last 50 yards?

Because your ether good enough to get opportunities at animals or your not. But I don’t see how another hunter using and inline somewhere else in the unit is going to effect you.

I think statistics bear out (at least in colorado, but I hear its true of other western states) that harvest rates have not really increased appreciably regardless of the technology we have. It would be interesting to dive into why this is.

 

[BRTreedogs]

The way it could affect someone is for more people to start hunting with multiple weapons because inlines are more available. That could lead to more harvest and less opportunity for the other weapon types. That's especially true if you don't have to choose "one" weapon for the year.

Also, if more people are out during muzzleloader maybe more shoot that great buck someone was wanting to shoot during the firearms season.

But, there is nothing to prevent you from using a muzzleloader during firearm season, so it would work both ways. Why do you need to hunt during muzzleloader season or have a special season?

If the inline is restricted to loose powder, lead conical, open sights.

I don’t believe the ignition type or where the ignition is placed is going to make a measurable difference.

Sure allowing anything goes, smokeless, scopes etc mite.

But how many more people are going to be in the field with a musket cap inline?
12 people per state?
How many of those 12 are going to harvest and animal? 2

So 2 animals are making or breaking it for the side lock hunter?

 

[BRTreedogs]

I think statistics bear out (at least in colorado, but I hear it’s true of other western states) that harvest rates have not really increased appreciably regardless of the technology we have. It would be interesting to dive into why this is.

I don’t think so either.
Technology has jumped quite a bit.
But harvest stats are essentially the same percentage.

 

[jimh406]

I don’t believe the ignition type or where the ignition is placed is going to make a measurable difference.

The people here aren't the ones that make the regulations.