Toxic / endocrine disrupting chemicals in outdoor equipment & clothes.

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RhinoKel

RhinoKel

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Thanks for all of the replies, glad I'm not the only one on here worrying about this stuff. And sorry It's taken so long to reply.

@matthewmt 100% dude - I have tried the find the most natural soaps and shampoos I can - its pretty tricky though, you'll find yourself reading and looking up ingredients at the supermarket for hours. Side note, since changing my diet to be as naturally based as possible, and drastically lowering carbs especially refined carbs and eating mainly animal products, I have much less body odour, to the point where I can get away with not using any sort of deodorant unless I'm in the heat all day or working hard outside.

@TSAMP My wife and kids all have eczema so we've become really strict about doing the same now as well. Even if its labelled as organic cotton, it goes in the wash first time.

@Desk Jockey I 100% percent agree. We look back at things our ancestors were exposed to 100 years ago and think its nuts that it happened, and our ancestors will look back at us the same. The key word there is cumulative , so lowering exposure is key. I don't know if it would even be possible to get rid of all industrial toxins in you life if you tried, but minimisation is definitely achievable. Hopefully our body can take care of the rest. But depending on what it is it can be pretty frustrating for people around you. My wife is getting used to it but for a while there she was complaining about all the changes (until I showed her a few articles which were backing up what I was saying). It's just amazing how pervasive some of these chemicals have become in our daily lives and how hard it is to minimise them. PS I had no idea that they used BPA in steel!

@ozyclint OH I do mate, lucky indeed overall. Just slightly lighter downstairs. I'm sure our clothes were treated with permethrin. And we also had this awful insect repellent paste that contained it which we would smear on our clothes when going into insect infested areas. The stuff would literally melt plastic so I hate to think what it does to the body.

@goathunter Wow - like holy hell wow. I actually didn't realise that PFAS was used as DWR.
My favourite hunting pants are the Satu Adventure Pants from Outdoor Vitals - Just looked, they are also DWR treated :(.

@Formidilosus Thanks dude, reading through it now. For the record I have gone and gotten a heap of merino shirts, but it's becoming harder to find them without polyester or nylon blended in. I have some woollen outer layers but where I hunt here they are rarely needed. I've grabbed a bunch of OD and CB cotton t-shirts, but good non synthetic hunting pants for warm weather are trickier. Have not heard of Ventile Cotton before but looking into it.

@ResearchinStuff Ack - I'm still considering it :D

@Dobermann Yeah it's definitely a non-partisan issue. What I would love to see is some people in the hunting manufacturing industry tackle it, but I know it's a huge kettle of fish. I just found this article here that goes into a number of companies efforts to eliminate some of these chemicals from their products and its not an easy proposition: https://thedaily.outdoorretailer.co...utdoor-industry-is-tackling-the-pfas-problem/ Just imagine Sitka, Firstlite Kuiu etc having to do the same. Would they have to modify most of their 'technical' product line up? Does it matter as much if you're only wearing it when you're hunting?

@Mojave Thanks mate; I've definitely gone down the clean diet rout - you've basically described my diet 97% of the time. The only deviations from that are the occasional piece of sourdough bread or glass of wine on a special occasion, and I'm a sucker for mangoes in summer. I'm having a short break from the extreme carnivore thing but I'm going back to it soon, it does work wonders. I guess the simplest way to put it is minimisation of exposure to toxins is one key, and having a healthy body to take care of the rest is the other.

@doc holiday13 That's it man, this stuff is cumulative, and minimising exposure is the best we can do to help out body filter out what it can. I'm pretty concerned about BC also - its turning the freakin frogs you know what after all. I'm getting a reverse osmosis system for the house to deal with that as well as fluoride and other heavy metals; most BC exposure in my house would be through the water supply if anything.

@menhaden_man Hahaha, a picture says 1000 words, and a meme picture says 10000. 100%

@TaperPin That's it mate, this stuff is everywhere industrialised society is and in increasing amounts. I worked it manufacturing as well as in the Military, and the amount of stuff I know I was exposed to is mind boggling. Sometime I think we took a wrong turn at the start of the 20th century or so. I think about the Amish a lot (probably a lot more than is normal lol), but I always come back to the question... were the Amish right? I think they were probably more right than they are wrong. I know their reasoning was more spiritual/philosophical, but they would not be facing many of the problems I brought up to anywhere near the same degree. I have not visited an Amish community before as I live in Australia, but their way of life seems idyllic, it's pretty much what I aspire to on some level. You would not see their physical reality filled with synthetic product or toxins, and I'm sure their health outcomes are better than much of the rest of the US. I know they did much better through covid for one.

@5MilesBack Agreed, and I think there would be people concerned about this issue from all walks of life and parts of society.

@Elmer J. Fudd Thats it mate - we've been hunting as a species for thousands of years successfully in all environments without any of this toxic stuff around - we don't need it, and there's always a natural alternative around.

@TuckTruck I'd still wash everything thoroughly first. Just in case.

@gbflyer Thanks mate, same here. So far so good, only doing scans every year now, so the oncologist isn't as concerned. We've had the same PFAS controversy over here at a number of our military bases and some manufacturing areas; it's wild that it's been happening for so long. The liability for the government and corporations involved is massive. And how do you clean it up, if at all?

PS: More reading if anyone is keen:



 
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RhinoKel

RhinoKel

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South Australia
Just on the subject of DWR, has anyone gone about tring to remove it from an item of clothing? I know that it comes out of the clothing over time, but is there a way of definitively removing it from an item?
 

OXN939

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G'day Ladies and Gents,

Not wanting to open up too great of a can of worms here, but I just wanted to see if anyone shares the same concerns I have.

Background: I had cancer a few years back and am now 'in remission' as they would say. I was unlucky enough to find a tumour in my right testicle, which ended up being removed pretty quickly after discovery. I was 'lucky' in that it's one of the easiest cancers to deal with and have a full recovery.

Noting I'm down to 1 now so 'full' isn't the word I'd use - ...and yes it's probably a missed opportunity to not use the handle "Half-Sack".

Anyway, I've spent a long time pondering what could have been the cause of this cancer - chemical or RF exposure during my time in the military being up there in my mind. In any case, since that time I've endeavoured to eat and live as clean as possible, being pretty discerning on what products I put on and in my body. Having lost a testicle, I've also been pretty concerned about what chemicals could effect my fertility and endocrine system, and so what I wear has also come into the mix. I'm trying to wear 100% or as close to 100% natural fabrics to reduce exposure to the endocrine disruptors and forever chemicals increasingly found in Polyester, Nylon and other synthetic materials, as well as some of the 'water repellent' treatments so many of our garments are treated in.

Which leads me to my point - the hunting and outdoors industry is awash with synthetic garments for their lightness, or moisture wicking or insulation abilities and garments treated with all manner of water repellent chemicals to keep us dry. Speaking generally, many of these chemicals have been found to be toxic, endocrine disrupting and even carcinogenic - though that is going to depend on the specific product. I've spent a lot of time looking for natural / organic fabric alternatives, but it has proven difficult. (I've now been looking into making some products of my own as a non-synthetic alternative).

I understand that many of us take these garments and equipment into some pretty extreme circumstances where all of the features of these synthetic products can mean the difference between comfort and misery, or even survival in some cases - but, is it something we should be talking about? Does anyone else share my concerns? Moreover is there anyone in the industry tackling this or any companies offering alternatives?

Or am I just too paranoid?

Would love to hear your thoughts.

Ever heard of Hunter Seven Foundation? Give them a Google. Enlightening look into how basically everyone in the military is exposed to literally thousands of carcinogens, often with almost no precautions taken... and how that ends up for us.

The modern lifestyle involves existing in a sea of carcinogens. Preservatives in food, radiation from cell towers/ phones, oxybenzone sunscreen, receipt paper, phthalates from plastic. During the chemical diaspora of the 60s, people openly embraced all these wild substances for their convenience without any foresight into the second and third order consequences of allowing them to permeate every aspect of our lives... and look at our country now. Sick, obese, depressed and with cancer rates several orders of magnitude higher than they ever were historically. Dunno about you guys, but I don't like checking Instagram enough to trade a healthy life for modern conveniences.

Speaking of Insta, there are some silver linings. If you want to learn about common endocrine disruptors/ toxins and how to avoid them, check out the account "hormonespecialist." That guy is the man
 
Joined
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It’s a problem but you can drive yourself crazy with it. I try to focus on things I put in my body and every day things because I think most of it is cumulative. So think food, soaps, sun screens, detergents, cookware, etc. I know my “daily load” is lower than most, and that’s the majority of my time, so I don’t worry to much about my DWR hunting clothes, jet boil pot, or permithin.
 

D S 319

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Jan 17, 2021
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Check out the app yuka if you haven’t yet. It makes the research much simpler while at the store.
 

prm

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No. VA
FWIW: per their website, the Prana Zion pants are
  • PFAS-Free DWR Finish
 

DuckDogDr

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Aug 24, 2019
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Cool subject and one I have personally been dabbling in a little over the past year or so and getting ever so slightly deeper. As the saying goes where there is smoke there is fire.

My step kid really is the one that got the push started .. lucky he’s focusing on this vs turning himself into a girl..

I live a very unhealthy lifestyle .. work 14-16 hour shifts 7 days a week .. off 7.. on 4 off 5 overnights
And have noticed subtle things as I have gotten older and more aware.

All started when he started pushing me to throw out the plastic Tupperware and get glass when I quit eating fast food as much.

Then he got on the soap box of deodorant and aluminum being terrible.

Swapped to all merino undies as the synthetic cooling brands caused skin reactions.

What bed sheets are y’all using .. whoever posted those earlier
 

DuckDogDr

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Has anyone partaking in this particular topic swapped laundry detergents?
Apparently there’s all kind of bad juju in them if you really dig. A lot of the chemicals used are banned in other countries ?
 
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RhinoKel

RhinoKel

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South Australia
Has anyone partaking in this particular topic swapped laundry detergents?
Apparently there’s all kind of bad juju in them if you really dig. A lot of the chemicals used are banned in other countries ?
I did for sure. This is an Aussie product but I’m sure it’s got equivalents in the US. Its also brightener and fragrance free so exactly what you’d want for hunting clothes too.
 

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TomJoad

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We live in a community embroiled in a PFAS / PFOA controversy due to AFFF discharge at our airport. It’s showing up in a lot of groundwater samples at the parts per billion levels. Same stuff modern synthetic outdoor gear is loaded with. Long story short is that it probably isn’t good for your health. Unfortunately it’s a lifetime chemical that isn’t going away and unless you’re a member of a tribe deep in the Amazon that has had no outside contact for the last 75 years, the genie is out of the bottle and won’t be going back in.

Hope you continue to have a clean bill of health.
I work in the outdoor industry and have for 2 decades. This is the a serious issue. It’s also already resolved for most reputable manufacturers. C8 the original worst case DWR has been out of use for a long time. Premium outdoor brands are now mostly on C0. Other alternatives for dwr include wax like what is used in fjallraven gear

There has not been any escape from forever chemicals since DuPont conception. You are right they were excited. They put in pretty much everything and it was awesome. Eventually they encountered heath problems with their own workers and identified pfas in their blood. Pfas was also in neighboring water supplies. At a certain point in the 80s they tried to find clean blood (no trace of pfas) and it did not exist anywhere. The only clean blood they eventually found were in samples that had been stored by the military in 1950! Everything past that timestamp is dirty. It’s in all of us. It’s in arctic ice and it’s on Everest. There are no corners of the earth without pfas, amazon tribes are not exempted. This documentary chronicles a lot:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil_We_Know
 
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RhinoKel

RhinoKel

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The cancer doesn't need to have an environmental or exposure cause though. You can get cancer by just living long enough and being unlucky.
True but reducing the possible causes to the maximum degree would massively reduce your chances of cancers occurring overall.
 
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No worries mate, I was 37. Seminomas are reasonable common in younger blokes. I was probably on the later end.
Alright sounds reasonable. I'd hope that just to be safe they tested for common mutations in tumor suppressor genes. Your p53 gene is probably the most famous as far as preventing cancers in general from forming but there are obviously others.
 
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RhinoKel

RhinoKel

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Alright sounds reasonable. I'd hope that just to be safe they tested for common mutations in tumor suppressor genes. Your p53 gene is probably the most famous as far as preventing cancers in general from forming but there are obviously others.
No genetic testing mate, it wasn’t offered to me and I’m not sure how common that sort of testing here, we are often a few years behind the US in terms of that sort of thing.
 

DuckDogDr

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So since getting on this topic . I’m going full commitment for a month once I get home after this block of shifts .

Ordered glass and bamboo food containers for meal prepping.

I have a freezer full of elk, red snapper and flounder
Parent’s pantry is full of products from the garden we canned this summer
And one of my co-workers is in this subject DEEP. Bought themselves a dairy cow and making their own cheese and she’s supposed to bring me some.

Ordered @RhinoKel s eco laundry detergent
And been using Native brand deodorant for about two weeks
 
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Was a big Patagonia fan for decades. However, Patagonia posted information on its website several years ago discussing chemical hazards arising from Patagonia clothing. They basically warned users not to wear it all the time. I switched to Fjallraven clothing made from wool, cotton and nylon. Less chemical soup. Fjallraven is very pro hunting and sells hunting-specific clothing and gear. My fjallraven garments all in very good shape after three years and I use them weekly.
 
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