Tikka actions vs Custom Actions

[Formidilosus]

I was just curious, because while there are many actions with the 700 footprint, and though deemed “clones” they vary widely in design. The Aero Precision Solus, for example, has the 700 footprint, but that is about all that it has in common with a 700. Three lugs, integral recoil lug, integral rail. Oh, and I guess the trigger. All the 700 clones will accept the same trigger. Is the trigger the point of failure on the 700 “clones?”

John

The trigger is the primary problem- and it is systematic. It cannot be fixed and several/lots of companies have tried. The Geissele Super 700 is the most reliable R700 trigger on the market and yet just a tiny bit of moisture in freezing weather and there is about a 50/50 chance it will not fire- at least in that BAT. They do better with factory R700’s and stronger firing pin springs but still malfunction or fail with very little debris.

While the trigger is far and away the largest issue, the other major one is the relatively open architecture of almost all the aftermarket actions (which part of that is again due to the trigger). Just looking at them you can see that there is space everywhere for debris, sand, dust, snow, and water to get into. Combine those two things with manufactures using very little, or incorrect tolerances and you get guns that have problems.

Off the top of my head since last year we have had:

ARC Mausingfields
ARC CDG
Defiance’s
Pierce’s
BAT’s
R700 factory’s
ADG
Seekins PH2 and PH3’s

And several others I can’t recall right now. All built by some of the, or “the best” shops/names in the business and in several cases the owners stated they brought them to prove to us that custom 700’s work just fine… It hasn’t worked out that way for anyone so far.

 

[JohnJohnson]

I think of it as a Glock vs cajunized CZ Shadow 2 sort of thing. The high end R700 clones are high performance but that comes with the fact that they'll fail more under certain conditions. Whether they're worth it comes down to whether you are actually capable of getting that little bit more of performance out of them (or their accessories like triggers, stocks, etc). That has to be weighed against the consequences for the reliability dropoff. And whether that little bit extra is even worth it for the thing you're doing. If you're a top PRS (or in the case of the pistol analogy, USPSA CO) shooter, it probably is. Most other people that's not the case.

I have a Lone Peak, a Mausingfield, and a Tikka. I'm quite enjoying shooting the Lone Peak right now but I don't have any doubt the Tikka is more reliable if I was on a hunt.

 

[OneGunTex]

Where do Zermatt's fall in this discussion? I'd call them semi-custom, still on an R700 footprint. More or less reliable than your average rifle?

 

[V35B]

I can get on the whole 700 trigger deal, I have experienced it, and seen it a lot in highly dusty conditions among several shooters. I have also seen the Tikka fail, but less often.
Latest personal example -
Here is inside my Zeus after a weekend of use in terribly dusty, windy conditions. I was on a target, made one impact, went to the next and “click” no bang. I stayed on target, started to raise the bolt and it fired. 100% trigger problem. Everyone was trying to tell me it was the bolt, they knew everything, but after I quickly removed the firing pin assembly, showed them the thing was clean, washed the trigger with lighter fluid, they all said huh, I didnt know that. I hoped they learned from that, Its amazing how little most know about their own rifles. I saw a good number of rifles of all makes go to the truck that day, some wouldn't cycle the bolt, some wouldn't feed, some wouldn’t fire, those guys just gave up.

 

[Marbles]

I can share deformed recoil lugs made of aluminum and I can share upgrading to steel and still having multiple 375h&hs in 85s having issues, recoil lugs getting loose in the bedding in laminate stocks and losing accuracy, also ejection issues with brass falling down in the port during a hunt and having a failure to close an action.

Look man like what you like, don’t care, the quality is fine, it’s just the money savings design that gets me on something’s so simple that shouldn’t be. Hell, even tikka says it in their own ads about the original t3 and how their t3x is better with the steel.

Again it’s not about quality, the new tikkas, s20s, and trg type notch cut actions are fine in a metal chassis, even with larger calibers and high round counts. No issues, only in wood/laminate with larger calibers is when I’ve had a few issues. Each their own.

Cheers.

The aluminum lugs are a sub $50 fix, and were fixed by Tikka 10 years ago.

Regarding loosening/cracking pockets and accuracy loss, this has been documented on actions with a lug attached to the action (even on smaller rounds like a 30-06). So, not fixed by an integrated lug.

Brass falling back into the action isn't related to the recoil lug, and I'm guessing was on a scoped rifle. Rem700 footprint actions have had the same issue.

 

[Formidilosus]

I think of it as a Glock vs cajunized CZ Shadow 2 sort of thing. The high end R700 clones are high performance but that comes with the fact that they'll fail more under certain conditions. Whether they're worth it comes down to whether you are actually capable of getting that little bit more of performance out of them (or their accessories like triggers, stocks, etc). That has to be weighed against the consequences for the reliability dropoff. And whether that little bit extra is even worth it for the thing you're doing. If you're a top PRS (or in the case of the pistol analogy, USPSA CO) shooter, it probably is. Most other people that's not the case.

I have a Lone Peak, a Mausingfield, and a Tikka. I'm quite enjoying shooting the Lone Peak right now but I don't have any doubt the Tikka is more reliable if I was on a hunt.

What is high performance about a R700 action? Genuine question.

 

[Xycod]

The aluminum lugs are a sub $50 fix, and were fixed by Tikka 10 years ago.

Regarding loosening/cracking pockets and accuracy loss, this has been documented on actions with a lug attached to the action (even on smaller rounds like a 30-06). So, not fixed by an integrated lug.

Brass falling back into the action isn't related to the recoil lug, and I'm guessing was on a scoped rifle. Rem700 footprint actions have had the same issue.

Yeah it was the 85s not the tikka, they ejected straight up instead of angled. Honestly other than caliber or someone wanting a deluxe type model I don’t know why anyone won’t opt for a Sako over the tikka in today’s market, same barrels, and tikka has imo a better action modeled somewhat after they trg 995 action.

Imo they botched their best rifle, the Sako s20, basically a medium action trg, and the trg m995 is a tikka designed action made for Sako long ago that’s still considered their best. The current tikkas are designed a lot like the s20/trg but with 2 instead of 3 lugs and as a side bonus they don’t change actions every 5-10 years like a pc as Sako does, another bonus.

I never knew why they didn’t offer the s20 with a standard rear hunting type stock and a metal trigger guard, that was my only gripes, personally didn’t care for either of their rear stock types for hunting.

 

[Xycod]

What is high performance about a R700 action? Genuine question.

For one they’re simple to produce, cost effective with tons of aftermarket support, and with good overhead for smiths is another, along with they’re easy to get extreme accuracy out of because of being easy to bed or drop in a chassis, lapping lugs and lock up/blueprinting was simple. As long as the machining was correct is was generally easy to get accuracy out of most 700s with minimal work.

 

[Judd]

So you choose to use a widely less reliable, more finicky, more expensive action that also bolt binds- that you have to baby… for why?




More like I’m in the “actually use things in real life” business because they are tools to accomplish a job. Things need to work with the minimum amount of fuss- if two items do the same thing, but one is more reliable: I’m choosing that one.




If your car didn’t start because the starter needed wiped down every hundred miles, would you- “say that’s ok, just needs to be cleaned?”

In the S2H courses, with 200’ish participants now, and 20-30% using them- not a single R700 based rifle has made it through a single week of use without constant problems. I don’t even remember a single one (besides mine) making it through the first day. When we hunt with perfectly clean rifles- when one goes down, it’s going to be a R700 based custom action.

(Yes I know there are people that will retort with “I’ve hunted 20 years and never ever had an issue). Yes, I’m sure you have. I also have- and do, use R700 based platforms a lot. Including hunting with them. They are widely more susceptible to failure than almost any other action/rifle system.

Because I don’t like the feel of the more reliable action and for my use, I don’t need the added insurance.

It’s your real life, but I’d bet we are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Meaning I’m in the baby (as some have said) and you’re in the extremes. God forbid I have to ever deal with the freezing conditions you do…something has gone terribly wrong if I ever have to deal with that again

I enjoy how much info you share, for free, find it interesting and appreciate your perspective but our uses/needs don’t align.

 

[Formidilosus]

For one they’re simple to produce, cost effective with tons of aftermarket support, and with good overhead for smiths is another, along with they’re easy to get extreme accuracy out of because of being easy to bed or drop in a chassis, lapping lugs and lock up/blueprinting was simple. As long as the machining was correct is was generally easy to get accuracy out of most 700s with minimal work.

Cheap to produce is not “high performance”.

 

[JohnJohnson]

What is high performance about a R700 action? Genuine question.

About some of the clones? I can take a few guesses I suppose. Better access to certain aftermarket things for one. Mostly stuff that's relevant to PRS/NRLH style shooting like light triggers, certain stocks/chassis, etc. Lighter bolt lift which helps not disturb the rifle as much when cycling the bolt from stuff like a Gamechanger bag. Ability to use AW magazines is really nice for that sort of shooting and I don't think Tikkas can use AW?

That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are other more subtle things like some people who do stuff to timing the ignition (or so the turbo nerds seem to say). Now are those advantages something that most people take advantage of? Nah not really. But I do think there's a legitimate reason other than herd mentality that PRS shooters (especially top ranked ones) use R700 clones for the game they play.

 

[Formidilosus]

About some of the clones? I can take a few guesses I suppose. Better access to certain aftermarket things for one. Mostly stuff that's relevant to PRS/NRLH style shooting like light triggers, certain stocks/chassis, etc. Lighter bolt lift which helps not disturb the rifle as much when cycling the bolt from stuff like a Gamechanger bag. Ability to use AW magazines is really nice for that sort of shooting and I don't think Tikkas can use AW?

That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are other more subtle things like some people who do stuff to timing the ignition (or so the turbo nerds seem to say). Now are those advantages something that most people take advantage of? Nah not really.

So lighter bolt lift, lighter triggers, and some chassis? Not many people relatively are using AW mags.

A chassis doesn’t make an action high performance- that’s a chassis or stock. There are quite a few very light tiggers available for Tikka’s, and yet still- a light trigger doesn’t make an action high performance. It’s a trigger and there are bench rest triggers available for Tikkas.

Light bolt lift primarily comes from very light firing pin springs. 90° bolt lifts with full power firing pin springs have heavy bolt lift. You can put a lighter firing pin spring in almost any action and reduce the bolt lift weight.

But I do think there's a legitimate reason other than herd mentality that PRS shooters (especially top ranked ones) use R700 clones for the game they play.

See this is what it actually is- “there must be some reason why every one uses them”. The factual, objective reality of why R700 patterns are used is not based on performance. They are worse at almost every single metric when “vibes and feels” are taken out of it.

They are not more accurate.
They are not more reliable.
They do not cycle better.
They do not feed better.

It’s only people that are indoctrinated in this world that believe they are better. You take anyone that doesn’t know anything about it and haven’t shot before, line up custom 700’s, Sauers, Tikka’s, Sako’s, etc. all setup the same side by side and have those people start using them- not one thinks the custom 700’s are “better”. The most common refrain from them when using the R700’s is “what’s wrong with this thing?”.
I am not a lover of Tikka’s and I don’t hate custom 700’s. It is ridiculous that no American company can even match a Finnish $700 rifle. But the reality is there is nothing better about R700’s. It is a near mass psychosis.

 

[Xycod]

Cheap to produce is not “high performance”.

Accuracy and hard use in the worst conditions imaginable are, how about look up rem a few 700s in the military and find me a few other bolt rifles that have been subjected to the same, short of a 98 Mauser or 91 Swiss. Many needed smith work to be right but when right they were outstanding. The m40 needs no props from me or anyone else on this forum, so for your so called high performance id say it’s been there done that.

Also while at it find parts in South Africa or Afghanistan for a tikka or Sako. The trg, probably their most successful design just happens to also be a budget designed action, same as the 700, and that’s per them in the old catalogs if you wanna do a little digging, its also offers a high performance level many more expensive to produce actions can’t match consistently.

This is like the 2011 guys bitching about a trigger not being light enough, the platform and available of parts and what its capable of is what I’m after, not a low ceiling for the masses.

 

[JohnJohnson]

Not many people relatively are using AW mags.

I was specifically talking about competition shooters, and they do use AW magazines. It's a big deal to many of them.

Light bolt lift primarily comes from very light firing pin springs. 90° bolt lifts with full power firing pin springs have heavy bolt lift.

With the same weight firing pin spring it will be heavier since you're doing the same amount of work over a shorter distance though? I didn't think this was controversial. It's one of the reasons Accuracy International rifles aren't really used by high level PRS guys anymore.

 

[Marbles]

Accuracy and hard use in the worst conditions imaginable are, how about look up rem a few 700s in the military and find me a few other bolt rifles that have been subjected to the same, short of a 98 Mauser or 91 Swiss. Many needed smith work to be right but when right they were outstanding. The m40 needs no props from me or anyone else on this forum, so for your so called high performance id say it’s been there done that.

That's funny. The USMC purchased less than 1000 units in the 1960s and stuck with them despite problems (and did not buy more). Plus it is now a legacy system replaced by the Mk22, because when it came tome to buy new actions the 700 lost. Prior to the M40 the USMC used Winchester Model 70s and M1903s. The M70 was not adopted official dur to the M1903 having better spare parts availability in WWII. The M40 hardly has a special pedigree and even within the USMC one can find other bolt actions that have seen more combat and hard use.

Military use, unfortunately, does not prove much in and of itself, it is an appeal to authority that should never be taken at face value.

 

[glock233]

The military pedigree of the M700 is BS. It’s not a serious player.

The M700 had widespread civilian and police adoption. Like many other sub-ideal and antiquated firearms, its popularity endures due to previous popularity and extensive third party support.

 

[Formidilosus]

Accuracy and hard use in the worst conditions imaginable are, how about look up rem a few 700s in the military

The irony of speaking to authority and history that you don’t understand.

and find me a few other bolt rifles that have been subjected to the same, short of a 98 Mauser or 91 Swiss. Many needed smith work to be right but when right they were outstanding. The m40 needs no props from me or anyone else on this forum, so for your so called high performance id say it’s been there done that.

The “awesome” R700’s that you speak to… you mean those rifles where the rifle firing when the bolt was closed or safety taken off was common enough that it was mandatory at the school house to put a rubber band around the scope and and the bolt handle to keep it up and open, and around the wrist of the stock behind the safety… so it didn’t fire without the trigger being touched? Or, is it where SOP for everyone was to carry a bottle of lighter fluid on their kit to flush their triggers multiple times a day?


Where do you believe the “bolt back while moving” rule when moving (even 6”) in PRS came from? Where do you think the “have to be aimed at the target before closing the bolt slowly” in PRS came from?


No one loves an M24 (or M40A1) more than I. But it is absolute falsehood that they didn’t have the exact same issues being discussed here.

Also while at it find parts in South Africa or Afghanistan for a tikka or Sako. The trg, probably their most successful design just happens to also be a budget designed action, same as the 700, and that’s per them in the old catalogs if you wanna do a little digging, its also offers a high performance level many more expensive to produce actions can’t match consistently.

Yes- the TRG and T3 are both good performing actions. I don’t care whether something was designed for “budget”- I care that it actually works.

This is like the 2011 guys bitching about a trigger not being light enough, the platform and available of parts and what its capable of is what I’m after, not a low ceiling for the masses.

The difference is 2011’s have real performance attributes- R700 clones do not.

 

[Formidilosus]

I was specifically talking about competition shooters, and they do use AW magazines. It's a big deal to many of them.

I’ll take your word for it. I only shoot a couple matches a year in the country, and I don’t see many AW mag users. There are some, but they certainly aren’t the norm that I see. Even still- you could modify a Tikka to take an AW mag.

With the same weight firing pin spring it will be heavier since you're doing the same amount of work over a shorter distance though? I didn't think this was controversial. It's one of the reasons Accuracy International rifles aren't really used by high level PRS guys anymore.

There is not that much difference between a 90° bolt and a 70° bolt with light firing pin springs. More variation from rifle to rifle than most from 700 to Tikka.
But again- you using a group as evidence for who’s whole safety rule set has to be built around non drop safe rifles, rifles that fire when you take the safety off, and rifles that fire when you close the bolt.

They use R700 because that is what is used- it’s as simple as that. It was the most common action to be trued and rebarreled when “sniper” matches started due to availability and cost, shooters knew and were familiar with them, and when manufacturers started offering “pre trued” actions, of course they brought them out in the platform that shooters knew. Why the R700 became ubiquitous has absolutely nothing to do with them being better- at anything, than any other action. They were simply a known commodity. And for PRS- all of their shortfalls don’t really rear their heads all that much: what a rifle in PRS goes through is closer to benchrest or F-Class than hard field use. Every once in a while you get a match with blowing sand or dust, snow, rain or whatever- and when that happens the rifles puke left and right; but by and large there is nothing environmentally more challenging in PRS than an F-Fcass match. Beyond that, most shooters clean them the first speck of dust that gets on them. They clean and wipe them down every night in a match. The safety issues with R700’s are accommodated in the rule book- so they don’t show up as much.

The whole PRS ecosystem is built around those issues and realities. That’s why they use them. Not because they are mechanically better.

 

[Beau1980]

Are the aftermarket triggers as sound as a say a TT for a 700

 

[handwerk]

Good reasons why I'm still a fan of the old open style triggers on some M70s, once tuned right they're pretty dependable.