this will be unpopular i am sure

[littlebuf]

uhhh if you want... although there were 31 other copies in my wildlife management class back in 2011, and probably a couple million more out there as well. do you have anything constructive or are you going to continue to act as you normally do in most threads lately?

Just one more. I wonder if you could afford my simple mind one more answer. Hypothetically, let's say you have 5 elk and a wolf eats one are there

A- more elk than before
B- less elk than before
C- wouldn't have this super hard math equation if there wasn't a wolf there
D- do you like or hate kuiu


I sure hope you can answer this for me. I'm just a anti wolf guy so you know, we're lot real book learned and stuff

 

[tipsntails7]

This is gonna be the last post I make on this thread because the last 3 plus pages have been the exact same thing and its just not constructive for the site or anyone on it. if you think wolves are the only problem and killing all of them will immediately make elk rain from the sky. you are wrong. they are just a piece in a very large puzzle. wolves are great at not allowing elk to recover, that is the real problem. there are always exceptions to the rules and Yellowstone and LoLo are prime examples. wolves are not going away. and yelling to kill them all is going to do nothing but draw attention from liberal, and animal activists. If they get their way and we are not able to control wolf populations properly then we are all in a world of trouble.

 

[tipsntails7]

Just one more. I wonder if you could afford my simple mind one more answer. Hypothetically, let's say you have 5 elk and a wolf eats one are there

A- more elk than before
B- less elk than before
C- wouldn't have this super hard math equation if there wasn't a wolf there
D- do you like or hate kuiu


I sure hope you can answer this for me. I'm just a anti wolf guy so you know, we're lot real book learned and stuff

HaHa!!! that's pretty good. littlebuf i understand were you are coming from and honestly I used to feel exactly like you do. I also in no way wanted to or tried to imply that people that hate wolves are dumb. even though some are. my problem is not with people hating wolves. my problem is people expressing their opinion and attempting to pass it as facts but with zero factual data to back it up.
As far as kuiu I put them in the same category as wolves. some stuff I like, some stuff I hate. either way they should be heavily monitored

 

[tipsntails7]

Just a question littlebuff. did you even attempt to read my explanation of population dynamics with an open mind? or was your rebuke already typed up before you finished it?

 

[littlebuf]

That last line was pretty good. Honestly my stance has always been I would absolutely love to live in a United States where there is room for wolves to exist in the lower 48 in a healthy balance with the Eco system. The reality is we don't , it really comes down to a matter real estate. There is room for wolves in Canada, there is room for wolves in Alaska . There's just not room for wolves to exist in a healthy manner In The lower 48. Like I said I wish there was because that would mean I was living in a country with far more vast wilderness than urban sprawl. But I don't

 

[littlebuf]

I've read it before in a dozen different stated ways. I under stand the concepts ( I was playing a little dumb there for fun *wink wink* ) but like many concepts that work on paper it doesn't mean they transfer well to reality. Communism for example is a great concept on paper

 

[tipsntails7]

Littlebuf. that actually makes a ton of sense and easily one of the best comments on this thread. I never really thought about it in that manor. I also agree that we will have a very difficult time managing them properly because of politics and such. this thread has caused me to change my mind about the spread of wolves in Oregon. sometimes I forget that the government is run of agendas, not what is best for its inhabitants.

 

[OR Archer]

what do you consider native?

http://www.skinnymoose.com/bbb/2012...hern-rockies-before-canadian-wolf-transplant/

This article details the distribution of the 5 sub species of gray wolves found in North America. The wolves that were introduced into the lower 48 did not historically live here, thus making them non-native. Some would consider them an "invasive species".

And for those who would like to read on the Hydatid disease that wolves are spreading here is a good article with other articles linked at the bottom of the page.

http://www.skinnymoose.com/bbb/2010...-have-thousands-of-hydatid-disease-tapeworms/

 

[tipsntails7]

I've read it before in a dozen different stated ways. I under stand the concepts ( I was playing a little dumb there for fun *wink wink* ) but like many concepts that work on paper it doesn't mean they transfer well to reality. Communism for example is a great concept on paper

good point. I personally feel it is a combo of both. predators no matter what are predators. they will kill and eat as often as they are able and given the chance will eat themselves into starvation. I also believe predation creates stronger individual prey, which equates into healthier herd populations. it truly is a balancing act.

 

[cuerro viejo]

your right, it had nothing to do with decades of over grazing on the north side. the grossly overblown carrying capacity that that region had become. it also didn't change when wolf populations drop from 81 to around 34 from 2007-2010. guess what happened. the elk population did not increase. it stabilized. using facts may give you some credibility in anything you say. do you even read what i write?

Using elk numbers inside of yellowstone for either side of the agruement is stupid.

Until yellowstone allows the hunters inside you can't compare it to out side. Kind of big missing part of the equation.
When you manage animals there is no way around the fact that when predation numbers rise, your harvestable number of animals go down. Essentially we now compete with wolves for tags. Nothing more nothing less.
If your good with that cool. If your not cool. But call a spade a spade.

Easiest way to control carring capacity is with natural predation, unfortantly its not very selective in its approach. Best way to control cc is through selective harvest, with limited predation.

 

[MattB]

When I read the OP, I can't ignore the logical disconnect. He waxes intellectual about the biology of it, but ignores the practical implications of the politics that would overlay the situation. In a liberal state like Oregon whose ability to manage predators has already been impaired by politics (i.e limitations on hunting lions with dogs), chances are that the deer and elk numbers would drop with the addition of wolves and the correct policy to allow for the situation to normalize over time would not be implemented. Prey species would decline, hunting opportunity would be limited, livestock losses would mount - and you'd have some guy who wanted no more than to hunt wolves in his home state wonder where the hell it all went wrong...

 

[cuerro viejo]

good point. I personally feel it is a combo of both. predators no matter what are predators. they will kill and eat as often as they are able and given the chance will eat themselves into starvation. I also believe predation creates stronger individual prey, which equates into healthier herd populations. it truly is a balancing act.

They are not near as selective as us...

Only one way to optimize health in a herd and thats being below carrying capacity. Now if you want to manage for trophy quality/age... predators are your enemy not your friend

 

[tipsntails7]

When I read the OP, I can't ignore the logical disconnect. He waxes intellectual about the biology of it, but ignores the practical implications of the politics that would overlay the situation. In a liberal state like Oregon whose ability to manage predators has already been impaired by politics (i.e limitations on hunting lions with dogs), chances are that the deer and elk numbers would drop with the addition of wolves and the correct policy to allow for the situation to normalize over time would not be implemented. Prey species would decline, hunting opportunity would be limited, livestock losses would mount - and you'd have some guy who wanted no more than to hunt wolves in his home state wonder where the hell it all went wrong...

if you read back I actually have come to something close to this conclusion.

 

[tipsntails7]

Using elk numbers inside of yellowstone for either side of the agruement is stupid.

Until yellowstone allows the hunters inside you can't compare it to out side. Kind of big missing part of the equation.
When you manage animals there is no way around the fact that when predation numbers rise, your harvestable number of animals go down. Essentially we now compete with wolves for tags. Nothing more nothing less.
If your good with that cool. If your not cool. But call a spade a spade.

Easiest way to control carring capacity is with natural predation, unfortantly its not very selective in its approach. Best way to control cc is through selective harvest, with limited predation.

the Yellowstone herd is hunted, just not in the park. there is only one herd that remains in the park year round and it numbers less then 200 and is located in the southern part of the park.

 

[Rizzy]

Tips, your original attitude is just fine IMO. Wolves are now in your state, accept it and adapt your hunting technique. You will continue to be successful this way. The guys that have not been able to adapt their hunting tactics in Wolf country will struggle to be successful.

IT IS NOT THE STRONGEST OF THE SPECIES WHO SURVIVE, NOT THE MOST INTELLIGENT, BUT THOSE WHO ARE THE MOST ADAPTIVE TO CHANGE.
-CHARLES DARWIN

 

[Clarktar]

Good point Rizzy and an even better quote. Thanks for sharing.

 

[ReddingArcher]

I was hoping that while roaming California OR-7 would have gotten a case of lead poisoning or tried to bite the front end of a semi. It wont be long till wolves are established here in California. Not a good thing here...or anywhere really.

 

[tipsntails7]

Tips, your original attitude is just fine IMO. Wolves are now in your state, accept it and adapt your hunting technique. You will continue to be successful this way. The guys that have not been able to adapt their hunting tactics in Wolf country will struggle to be successful.

IT IS NOT THE STRONGEST OF THE SPECIES WHO SURVIVE, NOT THE MOST INTELLIGENT, BUT THOSE WHO ARE THE MOST ADAPTIVE TO CHANGE.
-CHARLES DARWIN

Rizzy really like the quote. I have more or less the same attitude but I hope that oregon is open to implementing managment..

 

[Rizzy]

The politics of the state will be the biggest challenge, it always has been for the west coast.
Luckily a lot of Oregon is great basin desert and the Wolves haven't been able to take hold over here in the Owyhees yet.

Rizzy really like the quote. I have more or less the same attitude but I hope that oregon is open to implementing managment..

 

[Clarktar]

The politics of the state will be the biggest challenge, it always has been for the west coast.
Luckily a lot of Oregon is great basin desert and the Wolves haven't been able to take hold over here in the Owyhees yet.

Riz, do you live near the Owyhees? I really enjoy that area. Have made a fishing trip to the Owyhee every year for the last 5 years. Always have a great time.