Thin Fluted Barrels vs Carbon Barrels on factory rifles?

[Pickettpuncher]

I’ve read wrapped barrels will trap heat inside without the carbon fiber getting hot

 

[Elite]

That’s a kimber used bad barrel issue, not a thin barrels won’t shoot issue.

Same exact issue with my savage ultralight storm with a pencil thin barrel?


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[Choupique]

My winchester has a long thin fluted barrel with a big hole through it and seems to shoot the same hot and cold. It shouldn't matter what the temperature of the barrel is as long as it's stress relieved, straight, symmetrical and free from external interference. Consistent material properties in the tube means that it will grow and contract linearly and not bend itself from internal stresses.

Regarding flutes, at least mathematically they make the stiffness of the barrel different in different planes. It will be stiffer than an equal weight plain barrel normal to the unflutted portions (more meat in the fluted barrel than thinner plain barrel), and more flexible normal to the flutes (less meat than the plain barrel in that direction).

Not sure how that actually matters. Flutes are dumb IMO because it's just extra machine work for maybe faster cooling (which also means faster heating). If you like em, cool. If you don't, cool. I could see how the process of adding them could be a detriment to accuracy where I can't imagine how they could contribute to it in any way.

 

[Macro]

My 2 Bartlein CFs, while a touch heavier than Proof, are all wicked accurate.

I have 7 Proof CF barrels too. I had one of the dreaded ones that had a tight spot and would pressure up early, but it was still extremely accurate.

As for "lightweight" actions, I like the Kelbly Nanook in an all-steel action. The Lone Peak Fuzion Ti are very nice too, but pricey. I do have two Defiance AnTi X, and they are nice, but not as smooth as my Kelbly or my Defiance Deviants. The extea deep fluting seems to chatter a bit when running the bolt, especially if you still have a round below it.

 

[Formidilosus]

Same exact issue with my savage ultralight storm with a pencil thin barrel?

Next tell me you had a Ruger M77 that did it too…


Let me rephrase it- a properly stress relived barrel does not walk, does not functionally grow in group size, and exhibits no weirdness whatsoever until they nearly start to glow. How does the barrel magically know it’s on shot #4?
If you want to use compromised barrels as your “proof” that thin barrels don’t shoot- ok. But that’s what you are doing. Tikkas, Sako’s, blasers, Sauers, Barret Field Crafts, ULA//NULA, and all good aftermarket barrels will shoot fantastically until they are sizzling. I am not taking about my sample of one, I talking hundreds of barrels and ten of thousands of rounds.

The myth that thin barrels won’t shoot when hot, is just that- a myth, and needs to die.

 

[HuntHarder]

Next tell me you had a Ruger M77 that did it too…


Let me rephrase it- a properly stress relived barrel does not walk, does not functionally grow in group size, and exhibits no weirdness whatsoever until they nearly start to glow. How does the barrel magically know it’s on shot #4?
If you want to use compromised barrels as your “proof” that thin barrels don’t shoot- ok. But that’s what you are doing. Tikkas, Sako’s, blasers, Sauers, Barret Field Crafts, ULA//NULA, and all good aftermarket barrels will shoot fantastically until they are sizzling. I am not taking about my sample of one, I talking hundreds of barrels and ten of thousands of rounds.

The myth that thin barrels won’t shoot when hot, is just that- a myth, and needs to die.

Do you not think savage barrels are any good? I have always heard they shoot great. Ugly as sin, but shoot good.

 

[Leaf Litter]

There's nearly no advantage to carbon fiber other than esthetics (they definitely LOOK cool). Thin steel barrels are lighter and dissipate heat faster than CF.

Fluted barrels will be marginally lighter and stiffer than non-fluted barrels of the same diameter.

 

[Formidilosus]

Do you not think savage barrels are any good? I have always heard they shoot great. Ugly as sin, but shoot good.

“Good” is relative. They certainly exhibit more issues than they should.

 

[Hondo64d]

Do you not think savage barrels are any good? I have always heard they shoot great. Ugly as sin, but shoot good.

Here’s a couple of pics I took of a Savage Axis .308 barrel. This was after quite a bit of effort to clean it. It does not shoot very well…

John

 

[Elite]

Next tell me you had a Ruger M77 that did it too…


Let me rephrase it- a properly stress relived barrel does not walk, does not functionally grow in group size, and exhibits no weirdness whatsoever until they nearly start to glow. How does the barrel magically know it’s on shot #4?
If you want to use compromised barrels as your “proof” that thin barrels don’t shoot- ok. But that’s what you are doing. Tikkas, Sako’s, blasers, Sauers, Barret Field Crafts, ULA//NULA, and all good aftermarket barrels will shoot fantastically until they are sizzling. I am not taking about my sample of one, I talking hundreds of barrels and ten of thousands of rounds.

The myth that thin barrels won’t shoot when hot, is just that- a myth, and needs to die.

Thanks for clearing that up


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[HuntHarder]

Proof Carbon Fiber Barrels Review

BigJimFish reviews carbon fiber barrels from Proof Research discussing their cooling, harmonics, aesthetics, and performance

www.snipershide.com

Great test with actual data on steel vs. Carbon.

 

[NSI]

Form,
1) What is the minimum contour from a reputable cut-rifled pre-fit manufacturer which will shoot a 10 shot string in one minute without walking?
2) Same question for a 5 shot string in one minute.
3) How should one specify such a contour when ordering, such that it contains a flare to a flat shoulder to accept a 5/8x24 muzzle device?
4) Are there reputable cut-rifled pre-fit manufacturers which have the above as an out-of-the-box contour to select?

Thanks very much,
-J

 

[Wrench]

That’s a kimber used bad barrel issue, not a thin barrels won’t shoot issue.

100%.

Heat a tube with internal stresses or dimensional issues and change is likely.

I can't recall the number of sub moa 5 shot groups my 270ti has produced....but it's a bunch. 5 shots and you won't want to hold it for long.

Often people mistake "heat walk" with rifle accuracy. Somewhere in the experience of rifle shooters we learn that increasing the number of rounds fired increases the group size. Blaming barrel heat or size, the location of the moon and what the neighbors had for breakfast usually occurs before accepting the fact that we're holding a mediocre rifle and shooting mediocrily.

 

[Formidilosus]

Form,
1) What is the minimum contour from a reputable cut-rifled pre-fit manufacturer which will shoot a 10 shot string in one minute without walking?
2) Same question for a 5 shot string in one minute.

There isn’t one. ULA/NULA’s use an extremely thin barrel and yet I have have never seen one that walks in any way, and all I have seen are .9 to 1.2’ish MOA guns.

3) How should one specify such a contour when ordering, such that it contains a flare to a flat shoulder to accept a 5/8x24 muzzle device?

Thickness has shown to have no practical effect. That is, a #1 contour will shoot ten shot 1 MOA groups as likely as any other contour. For those that say otherwise- do you actually have direct experience and comparison to say that? That is, are your “thin barrel” rifles also extremely lightweight rifles over all? If so, you are seeing the effects of rifle weight- not barrel contour cause issues. A thin barrel in a 20lb chassis rifle shoots fantastic groups regardless of how hot until barrel mirage start causing issues.

4) Are there reputable cut-rifled pre-fit manufacturers which have the above as an out-of-the-box contour to select?

They vary all over. For balance and weight, I prefer Tikka T3 lite factory contour barrels.

 

[Dobermann]

Let me rephrase it- a properly stress relived barrel does not walk, does not functionally grow in group size, and exhibits no weirdness whatsoever until they nearly start to glow. How does the barrel magically know it’s on shot #4?
If you want to use compromised barrels as your “proof” that thin barrels don’t shoot- ok. But that’s what you are doing. Tikkas, Sako’s, blasers, Sauers, Barret Field Crafts, ULA//NULA, and all good aftermarket barrels will shoot fantastically until they are sizzling. I am not taking about my sample of one, I talking hundreds of barrels and ten of thousands of rounds.

The myth that thin barrels won’t shoot when hot, is just that- a myth, and needs to die.

Form, coming at it from the other direction: Are there any good reasons for a heavier profile then? Are there any 'practical' contexts in which a heavier barrel profile than, say a T3X sporter has any benefits at all?

I'm not talking about the current 'barricade benchrest' of the PRS, but other hunting or military applications?

 

[Sako300]

Form, coming at it from the other direction: Are there any good reasons for a heavier profile then? Are there any 'practical' contexts in which a heavier barrel profile than, say a T3X sporter has any benefits at all?

I'm not talking about the current 'barricade benchrest' of the PRS, but other hunting or military applications?

I’m guessing to have a better back stop if you wanted a brake or suppressor screwed on??

 

[Formidilosus]

Form, coming at it from the other direction: Are there any good reasons for a heavier profile then? Are there any 'practical' contexts in which a heavier barrel profile than, say a T3X sporter has any benefits at all?

I'm not talking about the current 'barricade benchrest' of the PRS, but other hunting or military applications?

Not really. They add weight and if you desire the rifle to be heavier for whatever reason, then the scope and barrel is a good place to do so, though a suppressor is better still. Heavier rifles are more forgiving of human errors, especially if they are slightly muzzle heavy. Precision however, for practical use isn’t a reason.
I’m not going to discuses bench rest as that isn’t practical and I have no functional use of it, but for field shooting- even at long range there’s no benefit that I, or those I shoot with have seen in lots of barrels from very thin to very thick on the exact same rifles/stocks.

 

[Dobermann]

Thanks Form, that's really helpful.

 

[EastHumboldt]

I’m curious about the term “heat walk”. Does a warm barrel result in slightly higher velocity due to expansion of the bore? And higher poi? I’ve noticed that my Tikka fluted 30-06 poi is a tad higher after it heats up but still groups well.

 

[Choupique]

Barrels usually "walk" as they heat up due to external forces (stock contact) increasing as the barrel expands, internal stress in the steel from the manufacturing process, or a screwed up grain structure.

The last two can be eliminated with proper heat treatment and stress relief. Basically the barrel will expand at differet rates in different spots and the result is a crooked barrel of increasing crookedness as it gets hotter.