Thin Fluted Barrels vs Carbon Barrels on factory rifles?

[CjMelendrez]

Thanks for the input guys. I'm definitely leaning away from a carbon barrel. now to see which barrel (fluted of thin contour) i'll go with on a factory spec gun.

- kimber mountain ascent
- tikka t3x superlite
- tikka t3x lite
- weatherby vanguard meaeater edition
- tikka t3x lite veil

 

[Wrench]

You won't go wrong with any of them.

 

[CjMelendrez]

Thanks @Wrench !! I'm excited to put this thing together.

 

[Bruce Culberson]

CjMelendrez check out the Christensen Mesa and FFT. A lot of gun for the money.​

 

[Woodsman1991]

Thanks for the input guys. I'm definitely leaning away from a carbon barrel. now to see which barrel (fluted of thin contour) i'll go with on a factory spec gun.

- kimber mountain ascent
- tikka t3x superlite
- tikka t3x lite
- weatherby vanguard meaeater edition
- tikka t3x lite veil

I think you're headed in the right direction! Based on your goals, I'd recommend considering the Kimber Montana with a 5R rifled 22 inch long, fluted barrel, chambered in 284 Win. I've long thought that would be nearly the ideal setup for lightweight, plenty of power, flat shooting, and reasonable recoil.

 

[CjMelendrez]

I haven't looked at the .284 win much..... I'll add it to the list! I really wish the Tikka came with a Monte Carlo style stock so i wouln't need to add an aftermarket check pad or swap out the stock right away.

 

[wind gypsy]

For a factory rifle, I wouldn't worry so much about fluted, non-fluted, carbon, etc. If a rifle meets the specs you're looking for and has a reputation for good performance, let that be the guide.

 

[LRI_Chad]

Have you ran tests on this? I have not, but I have talked with a good friend and read literature that says otherwise. Just curious

Look at it like this:

If I take a barrel made of steel it's going to weigh "X" for any given contour.
If I then take the same barrel and turn it down to a pencil and wrap the outside of it with graphite strands or cloth, it will probably not weigh quite as much as when I started. Why? Carbon is not as dense as steel.

Does the barrel shoot better? If carbon-wrapped barrels offered a significant performance gain, then I would expect to see them used heavily in stuff like NRA Highpower, International Palma, Bench rest, Silhouette, etc... It's a very rare thing if it happens at all. Highpower is a good litmus test here because of the rapid-fire strings that are back to back when shooting the 800 ag course of fire. PRS is also a good example when match directors set up "barrel burner" stages. -Carbon guys generally don't care for that because it's hard on equipment, and they pay a lot for their stuff. The word I get is that CF-wrapped barrels have more of a habit of wandering when they warm up.

Is the barrel stiffer?

It's along the same argument that routinely surfaces when discussing fluting. I use two basic examples:

If I take a magic wand and wave it over a contoured barrel and grow flutes on the outside of it, does that barrel become stiffer? I would say yes.

If I took a larger barrel contour and fluted it with the root of the flutes following a smaller contour, does it also increase in stiffness? I would say no.

The fundamental thing here is that you will not make something stiffer by removing material. With a wrapped barrel, you are more or less sorta doing both. The question becomes, did it actually improve? If I turn a barrel into a pencil and wrap it with something, so it now looks like a Sendero, it will probably be stiffer than the pencil I started with. Is it as stiff as a traditional all-steel contoured Sendero, though? I've never tested it, so I don't know, but it brings several other questions to mind.

• Does it somehow shoot more accurately?
• Is the barrel more forgiving because it now operates at a different frequency and amplitude?
• Are bullets somehow faster for a given powder charge?

Does a carbon-wrapped barrel dissipate heat better than a solid steel one?

I will say no. The example I use is a decade ago; I had a pair of Cerakoted barrels in the oven curing. Both in Sendero contours. One was SS, and the other was a Proof. I took them out of the oven and let them hang to cool. I grabbed the Proof first and was reminded that assumptions are often painful. I burned the snot out of my hand. The steel barrel, however, was cooled off enough to where I could handle it safely.

The lesson:

Experience is never cheap.

 

[Woodsman1991]

Meant to add, you can purchase the Kimber in 7mm-08 and convert to a 284 with a quick hand-ream job. Doesn't get any easier than that.

 

[HeavyAssault]

I bought a used R700 w/24" Proof Carbon barrel that was built by LRI from another member.
I bought a new Seekins Havak PH2 w/24" fluted barrel from an FFL.
Pricing wasn't too far apart for either considering the costs of the LRI work to the receiver/barrel.

Both rifles are dressed with Leupold scopes w/rings. The R700 uses a smaller scope over the Havak scope.

They weight within a couple ounces of each other. The key to weight is to go shorter on overall barrel length.

You want a factory rifle?? Buy a Havak...yea, it might be a few bucks more than your budget BUT I have found pricing on Gun Broker to be around the $1600-1700 range. I found Scheels had one in stock so I placed an order with no issues.

Not saying to buy here but just call they may ship to your FFL:

Seekins Precision Havak Pro Hunter PH2 Rifle

Unleash your inner hunter with the Seekins Havak Pro PH2 Rifle—light, precise, durable! Gear up for a thrilling adventure at SCHEELS now! SCHEELS

www.scheels.com

 

[CjMelendrez]

@HeavyAssault hadn't considered that company yet.... I'll do some research! thanks

 

[HuntHarder]

Always an interesting debate on Carbon vs. Steel. In my experience, shooting a standard sporter contour steel barrel vs. a sendero contoured CF barrel, the Cf is cool to the touch much quicker. I have never actually checked the internal temp on the rifling, but I suspect it would be lower quicker on the CF. If they cost the exact same, why wouldn't someone get a CF barrel? Most literature I have read has stated that PROPERLY wrapping a Steel barrel in CF does in fact make it a stiffer barrel than a comparable steel barrel. Today, I think I am going to go down the proverbial rabbit hole and see if anyone actually has tests to confirm. I see lots of opinions, but a slow-mo test on barrel whip would be awesome. Also actual heat tests would be great. I am sure some exists, but I havnt found them yet.

Post up some actual tests conducted if you find any,

 

[Wrench]

Fun facts can be learned in Harold Vaughn's "Rifle accuracy facts".

I'll try to rig up a "spine test" with some take offs for fun and argument.

 

[eoperator]

I've had 4 cf barrels, 1 was not the best and 1 sucked.

 

[wind gypsy]

Always an interesting debate on Carbon vs. Steel. In my experience, shooting a standard sporter contour steel barrel vs. a sendero contoured CF barrel, the Cf is cool to the touch much quicker. I have never actually checked the internal temp on the rifling, but I suspect it would be lower quicker on the CF. If they cost the exact same, why wouldn't someone get a CF barrel? Most literature I have read has stated that PROPERLY wrapping a Steel barrel in CF does in fact make it a stiffer barrel than a comparable steel barrel. Today, I think I am going to go down the proverbial rabbit hole and see if anyone actually has tests to confirm. I see lots of opinions, but a slow-mo test on barrel whip would be awesome. Also actual heat tests would be great. I am sure some exists, but I havnt found them yet.

Post up some actual tests conducted if you find any,

Going off memory but my recollection is Brian Litz has run some tests on bore temperature of carbon barrels vs steel. IIRC the results were in one of his books.

Alex Wheeler has done the stiffness test comparison and I've only read forum posts by him about it.

Those are at least a couple places that may help in your search.

Personally if i'm choosing between a steel and a carbon barrel - if they weigh the same, the steel doesn't have aggressive fluting, and there are desired muzzle threads, i'm going steel every time. Wrapping carbon around a steel liner is just another way to induce forces or stress into the steel IMO. It's just one more thing that could negatively impact accuracy that I'm happy to skip. Feel the same way about fluting.

 

[sodaksooner]

I had the same debate, CF versus Steel. Went with steel (but yes....fluted...although spiral fluted ) Id agree, although the Havak PH2 is a few $$$ more, it's a great "factory" rifle and reasonably light

 

[HuntHarder]

Going off memory but my recollection is Brian Litz has run some tests on bore temperature of carbon barrels vs steel. IIRC the results were in one of his books.

Alex Wheeler has done the stiffness test comparison and I've only read forum posts by him about it.

Those are at least a couple places that may help in your search.

Personally if i'm choosing between a steel and a carbon barrel - if they weigh the same, the steel doesn't have aggressive fluting, and there are desired muzzle threads, i'm going steel every time. Wrapping carbon around a carbon liner is just another way to induce forces or stress into the steel IMO. It's just one more thing that could negatively impact accuracy that I'm happy to skip. Feel the same way about fluting.

Don't you find it odd that tests are not easily found on the internet? There has to be something as to why very few competitive shooters choose not to use them. I get that they usually want a heavier rifle, but weight can be added elsewhere if a cf is stiffer and displaces heat better.

 

[wind gypsy]

Don't you find it odd that tests are not easily found on the internet? There has to be something as to why very few competitive shooters choose not to use them. I get that they usually want a heavier rifle, but weight can be added elsewhere if a cf is stiffer and displaces heat better.

It's when comparing a steel and carbon barrel of the same weight where the physical characteristic results are more intriguing.

Carbon barrels make zero sense in a competition application, especially when a reasonably heavy steel contour doesn't put one over weight limits. A heavy steel barrel of the same contour is stiffer, heavier, cheaper, has less mirage, bore heats up slower, and has better odds of being accurate than a carbon barrel. I can't think of a single aspect where a carbon would be preferable for most shooting competitions.

A heavy steel barrel is a larger heat sink and is going to spread that heat energy over the larger steel mass better than a carbon barrel with a thin steel liner. The bore does heat up faster on a carbon barrel just like the bore on a sporter barrel heats up faster than a heavy contoured steel barrel.

Barrel Field Test Featured In Modern Advancements Volume 2

Lots of people have asked what I’ve been working on, and I’m excited to finally be able to tell you ...

precisionrifleblog.com

Link with alex wheeler saying in general, carbon barrels are about as stiff as a steel barrel of equal weight. Also: "Look, I make a living chambering barrels and don't want that to change but I'm also honest. The percentage of carbon barrels that don't shoot vs steel is not even close. I'm happy to chamber them. But I also feel terrible when a guy struggles to make a rifle shoot."

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From Shawn Carlock on a LongRangeOnly thread:

We tried the carbon barrels several times. In the end my conclusion is this, if you have a carbon wrapped barrel that weights 4 lbs and a steel fluted barrel that weights 4 lbs you won't be able to tell any difference in them performance wise. From that stand point the carbon wrapped barrels have 2 drawbacks, double the cost and heat retention. I know the manufacturers claim greater heat dispertion but we took a laser thermometer and shot a carbon wrapped barrel 10 rounds and a similar weight steel fluted barrel in the same caliber 10 rounds, here is what we found:

1. The carbon barrel showed less outer surface temp than the steel barrel.
2. Reading the temp on the inside of the barrel the steel barrel was slightly cooler than the carbon wrapped barrel, but not much.
3. 10 minutes later the steel barrel was half the temperature the carbon wrapped barrel was, this of course makes sense with the carbon wrap acting as an insulator. Also the outer barrel temp was a little cooler than the carbon wrap at this point. These attributes confirm the insulating properties of the carbon fiber as I see it.
4. Carbon wrapped barrel makers have argued these points with me but in the end I see no perfomance gains in using carbon wrapped barrels only more money expended and potential barrel life issues from heat retention.
5. We did not have time to conduct a full barrel life test so I cannot say that there is less barrel life but it would make sense, at this point I had seen all I needed to.

Gunsmithing - Carbon Wrapped Barrel Heat Test

I've made mention in the past of my testing of Carbon Fiber Wrapped Barrels and the claims of how they dissipate heat. My initial thought was that I wouldn't post the results, but I've been asked by numerous members to share the information. The details are as follows: OAT--40* F We fired 20...

www.snipershide.com

 

[Elite]

Carbon barrels are not lighter than steel barrels can be. A #1 or #2 contour steel barrel can and will shoot fantastically even when hot. Carbon barrels are lighter than steel barrels of the same diameter- but the lightest carbon barrel will not be lighter than the lightest steel barrel.

Carbon barrels are-

- More expensive
- Heavier than needed
- And generally have a higher probability of getting a bum barrel.


Fluted barrel are-

- more expensive than no fluted steel
- are not lighter than a steel barrel of equal stiffness
- increase the likelihood of stress in the barrel



The easiest and most straight forward answer is to get a steel barrel from a good company, in the contour that meets your weight desires, with a flared and threaded muzzle if a suppressor is used, chambered and installed by someone that knows what they are doing.

I would have to disagree with the one point about thin barrels shooting well when hot. I had a Kimber that would shoot .5 moa. After 3 shoots and hot it would look like it was spraying bullets


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[Formidilosus]

I would have to disagree with the one point about thin barrels shooting well when hot. I had a Kimber that would shoot .5 moa. After 3 shoots and hot it would look like it was spraying bullets


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That’s a kimber used bad barrel issue, not a thin barrels won’t shoot issue.