The Shoot2hunt Podcast

[PantherCity]

Cell phones used to have detachable batteries.....

I wish they still did


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[grfox92]

Why can't some guys like magazines and some guys like hinged floor plates? Is that also an option?

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[Chris_in_Idaho]

Why can't some guys like magazines and some guys like hinged floor plates? Is that also an option?

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Pretty much my plan...

 

[Formidilosus]

What data are you referencing here? Rifle, cartridge, etc.

Personal observations of tens of thousands of rounds hundreds of shooters and hunters, every military weapon system trial since the 80’s where rifles with internal mags were submitted- all failed reliability portions and/or had much lower MRBS than the same or single rifles with DBM’s- when the USMC went from BDL to AICS mags in the M40A3 it was noted that MRBS went up, etc, etc.

Edit: There are a ton of reasons to use a DBM, but all else being equal, a detachable feature introduces an additional tolerance into a system.

Making a DBM feed from a bolt action is an easy thing. There are functionally no Tikkas, Sako’s, or Sauer’s that have feeding issues with mags. Same for systems setup to use AI AW and AICS mags. Yes, every manufacturer can and does make a bad mag at some point, it’s also apparent the first time it is used.



Mags are loaded in a clean and unhurried environment without stress. Internal mags have to be loaded one at a time, and under stress or weather.

Under stress in the field:

DBM= release old mag, insert new mag, close bolt.

BDL/ADL= open bolt, pull round out of pocket or carrier, put round on follower, push round down, slide back. Pull round out of pocket or carrier, put round on follower, put round on opposite side, slide round back. Pull round out of pocket or carrier, switch sides again, out round in follower, push down, slide back- about here (3 or 4 of 5) make sure rounds don’t get bound up. Pull round out of pocket or carrier, put round on follower on other side, push round down, slide back. Pull round out of pocket or carrier, put round on follower, switch sides again, push round down, slide back.


What about that is “better”?






People that believe that BDL’s and ADL’s are more reliable have in my experience, universally been people that do not load the magazine and feed from the mag while shooting at the range- they load one round at a time in the chamber, eject that one, and load another. They have no idea how their rifle feeds when loaded completely, nor shoot enough with them to get any realistic idea at all about mean rounds between stoppages.


Further, any one that has much experience with shooting and hunting and someone trying to top load a rifle one round at a time under stress or with cold fingers has seen the fumbling and dropped rounds, cussing and frustration from it. It is so ubiquitous that someone believing that an internal mag is easier, has less failure points, or is more reliable- either doesn’t shoot much, doesn’t pay attention and conveniently forgets when rounds are fumbled or the bolt binds up, only has experience with Savage and Rugar American DBM’s, or all of the above.




Note: at no point have I stated that internal mags aren’t reliable or cannot be used competently. I am addressing the comments that stated that internal mags were “better”, more reliable, or less error prone- that’s objectively untrue.

 

[Gorp2007]

some guys like magazines and some guys like hinged floor plates

 

[Jason Snyder]

Why can't some guys like magazines and some guys like hinged floor plates? Is that also an option?

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I have both. Pros and cons to each.

 

[Formidilosus]

I mean people fumble things and they get lost in powdery snow.

Ok? That goes for every piece of gear. Do the same people not fumble and drop rounds when trying to top load a mag?


And why do I, or you, care about what incompetent people do?

I do quite a bit of work via snowmobile most winters (didn't get much winter this year) and every outing someone looses a scrench or a file, not to mention hardware if we're hanging signs. Heck I've dropped my keys just getting out of the truck and had to sift for them. Shit happens.

So…. You don’t carry your keys? I mean you dropped your keys, but you don’t drop rounds?

I’m legitimately trying to figure out your logic here- you’re stating that people are clumsy and drop things, yet are advocating for a system that requires people to handle more and smaller things to reach the same end state.

As to your Glock and AR mag question, are you claiming nobody has ever lost a magazine from their Glock or AR?

Where did I say it never happens? I said it’s “not a thing”- as in, it is not a thing that happens with any frequency level that requires a different system.

That's ludicrous. I guarantee more Glock mags have been lost in history than revolver cylinders, and more AR mags have been lost than floorplates or fixed internal box magazines.

I’m not sure what to say here. If someone is losing mags with enough frequency to be an issue- or even remembered, I would have to question their mental capability to carry any gun for any reason.

Umm ok. But that’s a great point- revolvers have much lower mean rounds between stoppages than good semi autos; just like internal magazine rifles have lower MRBS than good DBM’s.
This is easy to prove- go to the range with a bucket of ice water, a timer and target. Soak your hands in the ice water for 60 seconds, start timer, then load the internal magazine and shoot a target 5 times, reload the the magazine and shoot 5 times, reload and shoot 5 times, and once more- all as fast as possible. For a total of 20 rounds and 4 reloads of the magazine. Video it. Then do the same with a good mag fed rifle and come back and legitimately say that an internal mag is less failure prone.

Actually now that I think about it when I first started carrying years ago I had an XDS in a crossbreed style holster (different brand) and the kydex didn't cover the opposite side of the ambi mag release. It was stupid. I had dining chairs, work benches and kitchen counters eject my magazine on more than one occasion.

So you had a poor holster for a pistol, and somehow this relates to rifle DBM’s how?

I haven't had a lot of problems with my revolvers, tube fed lever actions, tube fed shotguns, or fixed magazine bolt actions, nor have I seen other people have many mag related issues with them (unless you count 303 rims in Enfields... which are actually DBMs...).

Although this explains quite a bit- what problems have you personally had with losing detachable mags for a rifle in the last year or two?

But I have been witness at public ranges in the pre season sight in rush to people showing up and saying "I could have sworn the mag should have been in the case."

And you’ve never seen someone show up that forgot the box of ammo, or grabbed the wrong ammo?

I guess you can name call me as amateurish, and that's probably fair, but it doesn't change the facts.

Doesn’t change what facts? Anyone that if forgetting or losing mags, is forgetting and losing the ammo itself.

Didn't Jake or his son walk away from a pair of Swarovski binos on the mountain or something like that in one of the early podcasts? I guess Jake's amateurish too.

Actually in the definition of the word- yes.

But again, this has what to do with internal versus detachable mags?

Every decision is a compromise and for a fighting weapon the need for firepower obviously outweighs the possibility of losing a magazine. But for a big game rifle, there's no need for high volume firepower.

It has nothing to do with “firepower”.

All else being equal my preference would be for all essential components of my hunting rifle to be attached to my hunting rifle. It's not a hill I'm going to die on as evidenced by the Tikka I recently bought, but it would be my preference.

I haven’t said anything about preference. It very well could be that I prefer internal mags- I haven’t said one thing about what I like, what I think, or what I feel. I have only addressed the logical fallacies or outright incorrect statements that were made.

You might decide that the benefits of a DBM outweigh the risk of losing the mag by 1,000,000:1 and in your opinion only idiots like me would ever consider an integral magazine, and that's fine.

I have stated nothing about preferring or “considering” different mag systems.

But flatly stating that there's not a single function in which a DBM does not outperform an integral mag isn't true. A detachable mag can become separated from the rifle, however unlikely or amateurish that may be, while an integral mag cannot.

Neat. My tires can fall of my truck, while the legs of a horse cannot.

Now I'm off to listen to Tuesday's podcast to learn what else I'm an idiot about...

This is the second time in your post you have done this. Have I called you an idiot? If I haven’t, then please don’t passive aggressively insinuate that I have. Being incorrect, or using inappropriate analogies forms make someone an idiot. Acting and behaving like one does. I have not stated anything about your intelligence.

 

[Formidilosus]

I brought this up mostly to poke fun at the owner of UM not knowing how to operate a bdl. There's nothing worse than a poorly feeding bdl, can brick the entire rifle. If you have a faulty magazine they're easily and quickly replaced.

Random aside, anyone know if aw mags can be topped off in the gun? I know they're double stack/double feed...

Yes they can.

 

[Formidilosus]

Cell phones used to have detachable batteries.....

You guys really ought think through your comparisons and analogies.

 

[Formidilosus]

Why can't some guys like magazines and some guys like hinged floor plates? Is that also an option?

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Who has said that they can’t? If you read the thread the discussion came because people stated that DBM’s “sucked” and internal mags are better. Other than carrying in the hand and looks- that’s not true.

It is quite ok for someone to state “I prefer x item, yet recognize the potential compromise”. If someone instead says something that is objectively incorrect, I would expect and hope people would call them on it.

 

[JohnJohnson]

@Formidilosus out of curiosity, are AW magazines in AW-cut R700 two lug actions generally pretty reliable? For my next barreled action (LP Fuzion) I ordered a Hawkins with an AW mag latch since the action is AW cut I figured I'd try those out. I've heard AW mags function best with three lug actions where one of the lugs dips into the magazine. Are AW-cut two-lug ones less reliable?

 

[Firth]

Making a DBM feed from a bolt action is an easy thing. There are functionally no Tikkas, Sako’s, or Sauer’s that have feeding issues with mags. Same for systems setup to use AI AW and AICS mags. Yes, every manufacturer can and does make a bad mag at some point, it’s also apparent the first time it is used.

Have you never had a bad Tikka mag? I bought a spare 4 rounder and a 6 rounder to have ready to go when hunting. I'm shooting reloads at around 2.25 coal, and never had a problem feeding from the mag that came with the gun, but with both the new ones, cartridges in the magazines sometimes tilt and do not pop all the way up. On average, it happens at least once per magazine. I initially thought they would get better with use, but I don't like to use them because they feed crappy. Getting two at once makes be suspicious it's a "me" problem, but I do have the original that feeds fine. I've been meaning to try with some non-reload ammo. Maybe I just need to rub some dirt on them.

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus out of curiosity, are AW magazines in AW-cut R700 two lug actions generally pretty reliable? For my next barreled action (LP Fuzion) I ordered a Hawkins with an AW mag latch since the action is AW cut I figured I'd try those out. I've heard AW mags function best with three lug actions where one of the lugs dips into the magazine. Are AW-cut two-lug ones less reliable?

Less reliable? Probably. Unreliable..? no. If the rifle is assembled correctly the magazine will not likely be the failure point with that system.

 

[Formidilosus]

Have you never had a bad Tikka mag?

Yes. 223 mags specifically seemed to have a batch a coupon years ago that were finicky. Probably saw 4-5 out 30 ish that had issues. Usually stretch the mag spring corrected it. I have not seen a bad normal SA or LA mag.

I bought a spare 4 rounder and a 6 rounder to have ready to go when hunting. I'm shooting reloads at around 2.25 coal, and never had a problem feeding from the mag that came with the gun, but with both the new ones, cartridges in the magazines sometimes tilt and do not pop all the way up.

Stretch the mag spring. Same issue as above with the ones I saw.

 

[grfox92]

Who has said that they can’t? If you read the thread the discussion came because people stated that DBM’s “sucked” and internal mags are better. Other than carrying in the hand and looks- that’s not true.

It is quite ok for someone to state “I prefer x item, yet recognize the potential compromise”. If someone instead says something that is objectively incorrect, I would expect and hope people would call them on it.

We are on the same page, my post was sarcastic. I was one of the ones who prefer a hinged floor plate for a hunting rifle, I would never argue it being better than a magazine.

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[Jason Snyder]

My tires can fall of my truck, while the legs of a horse cannot.

Anyone who has owned horses can attest to the fact they could cripple themselves in a rubber padded room.

 

[Formidilosus]

Anyone who has owned horses can attest to the fact they could cripple themselves in a rubber padded room.

Haha. Don’t bring reality into this!

 

[IrkedCitizen]

IMO one of the best DBM on the market comes on Steyr rifles.

 

[fisherman983]

After a bit of a hiatus from pistols, did some shooting today with a few. Was not specially doing Bill Drills, but the Bill Drill was sort of it. All bill drills were clean (inside 8 ring) with all but a couple of shots with the PMR all in the 5.54” black of the B8 bull. Shot cold, back to back with no practice.


1911 45auto- 3.75 seconds
G17- 3.76 sec
Zev OZ9c with RMR (G19 size)- 3.68 sec
Staccato P2- 2.90 sec
PMR30- 2.27, 2.17, 1.92, 2.03, 1.92 seconds in order.

Then did two more times with the Staccato P2 at 2.20 and 2.13 seconds.

The biggest hindrance with the PMR 30 was the holster that I was using didn’t fit it well. Also the thumb safety is smaller than ideal- already have replacements on the way.

View attachment 692854


View attachment 692855

Do you appendix carry or on the side when concealed?

What holsters do you like that carry well but offer plenty of comfort?



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[Southernfried]

Well I will have to say the one time I left my magazine at home when I went deer hunting, I was not nearly as mad about it when I discovered I had left it in my rifle...............at home.........