The Shoot2hunt Podcast

[Bearwhisky]

Everyone safely manipulates until they are distracted.

Can you please explain, in-depth, how someone can be competent enough to have 100% perfect gun handling, yet a thumb safety is some magical device that makes them fall apart?

And can you also explain how having a single point of failure, with no backups, is better or “safer” than having a backup? You can use a vehicle how seatbelts and airbags are only a thing to make a driver complacent because if you drive perfectly, they are unnecessary… as an example.






Hmmm. So, there’s no situation where you would pull a pistol, and not immediately shoot it? You know- like say maybe in the woods around camp with a bear? Or after shooting a bear? Or about 50 other scenarios.

It all makes sense on a flat range with two hands gripping a gun. Very easy to manipulate a safety I’ll give you that…no reason for someone to have trouble manipulating one. If you are in a fight with a bear (or human) in close retention rolling around on the ground, shit happens. Scenario-hear a bump in thick brush, bear attacks you before you can react, you are rolling around on the ground fighting him off with one hand, gripping gun with other. Blood dripping from both of you and its everywhere. You have one hand holding on to the pistol for dear life with your thumb wrapped around the grip (this is the strongest digit on your hand ). You go to break thumb grip to disengage safety and the gun gets knocked out of your bloody hands. (You could insert a human for the bear that is actively trying to grab the firearms from you too, and the argument is stronger). Anything is possible and fights can get ugly, thats why I want one less layer of fine motor skills that isn’t necessary. Especially when considering operating it with one hand.

And yes plenty of situations where you would draw and not shoot. This falls under safely manipulate. Pistol in work space, actively searching and manipulating the gun with trigger finger on slide until ready to engage. This doesn’t require a safety. Walking around nonchalantly getting from point A to B and not actively working with the firearm but it still being in your hands or hanging free would require a safety. But I don’t do this, I put it in a quality holster instead.


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[grfox92]

I don’t agree, it’s not the hornet nest, it’s a realistic approach

I went through a similar thought process, have had a couple 454’s, a 500, way too heavy to carry, then went to a 10mm, and got sick of the bulk.

I thought, what are the chances that a 10mm would get me out of a situation that a 9mm wouldn’t? What are the odds of that changing the outcome of a situation?

Now I carry a Springfield hellcat, and I think it’s a perfect woods carry gun that I actually am willing to carry every day.

I appreciate that Form thinks practically and doesn’t sensationalize everything, there is enough of that in the world already

I carry a Hellcat as my EDC and a S&W 10mm as a bear gun. Me and my hunting partner have been talking about how we are tired of carrything these heavy as 10mm and have been talking about switching to 9mm.

I'm half tempted to sell my 10mm and put that money towards a Tikka and just carry my Hellcat.

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[grfox92]

Yeah, the way it was phrased was along the lines of "stopped before they hit vitals". So on track to hit them, but didn't make it. I'll see if I can dig it up.

I spoke to the game warden who was there for the investigation. He said, the guy told them he was shooting Buffalo Bore hard cast, but they found aluminum cases amongst his empties at the scene. That tells me that the guy had a few hard cast on top and then filled the magazine with cheap aluminum cased FMJ range ammo. That's why they fell short of the vitals.

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[IBen]

It all makes sense on a flat range with two hands gripping a gun. Very easy to manipulate a safety I’ll give you that…no reason for someone to have trouble manipulating one. If you are in a fight with a bear (or human) in close retention rolling around on the ground, shit happens. Scenario-hear a bump in thick brush, bear attacks you before you can react, you are rolling around on the ground fighting him off with one hand, gripping gun with other. Blood dripping from both of you and its everywhere. You have one hand holding on to the pistol for dear life with your thumb wrapped around the grip (this is the strongest digit on your hand ). You go to break thumb grip to disengage safety and the gun gets knocked out of your bloody hands. (You could insert a human for the bear that is actively trying to grab the firearms from you too, and the argument is stronger). Anything is possible and fights can get ugly, thats why I want one less layer of fine motor skills that isn’t necessary. Especially when considering operating it with one hand.

And yes plenty of situations where you would draw and not shoot. This falls under safely manipulate. Pistol in work space, actively searching and manipulating the gun with trigger finger on slide until ready to engage. This doesn’t require a safety. Walking around nonchalantly getting from point A to B and not actively working with the firearm but it still being in your hands or hanging free would require a safety. But I don’t do this, I put it in a quality holster instead.


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Also if your right arm is disabled because of a bear attack and you have a right handed safety and you have to shoot with the lefthand.

 

[5811]

I shoot both striker fired, no manual safety pistols and manual safety 1911/2011. I get that a safety can help remove the possibility of a negligent discharge while holstering or drawing. 100 percent, makes sense. I also agree that a safety doesn't slow you down with good fundamentals. I'm on board.

But when people bring up that some rifles need to go off safe to unload, others scoff at it as a concern. Maybe those are two wildly different things to compare, but if you boil it down to "safe is better than no safe while manipulating", it seems contrary to the pistol point.

 

[WiscoHoundsman]

I black bear hunt and know a guy who was bit by a bear on his ankle. The bear was treed with hounds and shot as it decided to come down but likely a poor shot. He went after it with his pistol and ended up slipping down an embankment that the bear was at the bottom of. It bit him and he shot it in the head. Note he already had the gun in his hand but basically shot it off his foot.

I have also seen several bears shot that needed to be finished with a head shot because they were attacking dogs. So the info on a rifle not being instantaneous seems right from my experience of being around 3-6 bears shot a year for the last 15 years.

 

[Chris_in_Idaho]

...from my experience of being around 3-6 bears shot a year for the last 15 years.

Have you ever seen a bullet of any caliber be stopped or deflected by a bear skull?

 

[WiscoHoundsman]

Have you ever seen a bullet of any caliber be stopped or deflected by a bear skull?

I have not but most of the time any sort of finishing shot is 2-5 yards away with something like a 30-30 or shotgun with slugs. I have seen a few shot with pistols but not nearly as many.

Any bear shot out of a tree we typically tell the shooter to aim for the head as well.

 

[nephewjephew]

Shot the m&p 22mag. Wow.

Time for some reliability testing.

I'm interested to see how it works for you. I keep going back and forth between that and the S&W 5.7. @Formidilosus curious to hear your thoughts on the 5.7

 

[Formidilosus]

I'm interested to see how it works for you. I keep going back and forth between that and the S&W 5.7. @Formidilosus curious to hear your thoughts on the 5.7

It’s fine with good ammo- Gold Dot’s. It’s just expensive even for practice ammo.

 

[Lawnboi]

I'm interested to see how it works for you. I keep going back and forth between that and the S&W 5.7. @Formidilosus curious to hear your thoughts on the 5.7

I got a case of gold dots and some Hornady critical defense coming for the 22 mag. Along with a holster from muddy River. Definitely cheaper to shoot the 22 mag, it’s a tolerable price I think considering I’m likely only going to shoot self defense rounds out of it. I could see shooting this gun a lot. I shoot a pistol every once in a while but do know I should more, but this thing is easy shooting and very accurate. Very soft shooting, don’t know if it’s the gas system.

I also like how thin the slide is, it’s a full size frame, but fairly thin, I don’t see any reason I couldn’t carry this iwb (I carry at 3 o’clock) with anything but summer clothing. Though this one will likely live its life as a home defense gun.

Either way if I like this one maybe down the road I’ll get a 5.7 in the same. Hopefully by then 5.7 ammo prices come down, they really don’t give that ammo away.

 

[nephewjephew]

I got a case of gold dots and some Hornady critical defense coming for the 22 mag. Along with a holster from muddy River. Definitely cheaper to shoot the 22 mag, it’s a tolerable price I think considering I’m likely only going to shoot self defense rounds out of it. I could see shooting this gun a lot. I shoot a pistol every once in a while but do know I should more, but this thing is easy shooting and very accurate. Very soft shooting, don’t know if it’s the gas system.

I also like how thin the slide is, it’s a full size frame, but fairly thin, I don’t see any reason I couldn’t carry this iwb (I carry at 3 o’clock) with anything but summer clothing. Though this one will likely live its life as a home defense gun.

Either way if I like this one maybe down the road I’ll get a 5.7 in the same. Hopefully by then 5.7 ammo prices come down, they really don’t give that ammo away.

I saw some 5.7 at .38 a round for fioccchi practice rounds but the speer is going to cost ya, $40 for 50. They are so close, you get flat shooting with the 5.7 and no rim (more reliable feeding). And better cost and availability and the cost of less reliability with the 22. Its really splitting hairs. Love my ruger 22/45 but having to stop and reload after 10 instead of 30, now thats a good time.

 

[Lawnboi]

I saw some 5.7 at .38 a round for fioccchi practice rounds but the speer is going to cost ya, $40 for 50. They are so close, you get flat shooting with the 5.7 and no rim (more reliable feeding). And better cost and availability and the cost of less reliability with the 22. Its really splitting hairs. Love my ruger 22/45 but having to stop and reload after 10 instead of 30, now thats a good time.

I did notice the 5.7 also gets you a metal mag, versus a plastic on the 22 mag.

Im going to get a few hundred rounds through it to break it in and start tracking reliability after that. If it proves to be unreliable I’ll likely relegate it to a practice gun and try the 5.7. I like the feel and operation of this pistol enough that I have a feeling I’m going to really not like shooting my Glock 43/43x any longer.

 

[Elkangle]

Listening to the latest podcast

Pretty funny not so funny story about losing your mags...I came across a guy in the mtns of idaho who traveled a long ways just to some how drop his mag in the snow.. he was on his hands and knees sifting through the snow all along his back trail.. it was after dark so I couldn't tell if he was crying or not.

This was back when the only mag releases were 2 inch long on aftermarket stuff

Bring more mags !!!

 

[Formidilosus]

This was the point of my post in a nutshell.

Yes, but I was (still am, to be honest) equally unskilled. My point being that 10mm recoil isn't the gigantic hindrance that it's being made out to be on this thread.

I’m not sure that people are making it a gigantic hindrance here. 10mm costs a lot of performance with the vast majority of people- about 30-50% reduction is skill compared to 9mm. Those are real numbers from a relatively large population.

10mm costs measurable performance yet offers no benefits.

You have a history of backing up what you say and being right, so I'll look at this as a learning opportunity for me.

If by "muscle memory is not real" you mean muscles don't actually contain little brains with memories inside, then yes, I agree.

Correct. I was generally being pedantic, however people say “muscle memory” and do not understand how or what they are meaning.

But when I used the term muscle memory I was referring to training a series of movements over and over so that they can be performed quickly and accurately while requiring less conscious attention to be taken away from present tasks like situational awareness.

Correct. Conditioning until automaticity is reached.

In this case, drawing and presenting the pistol to the firing position with sights aligned and on target and pressing the trigger smoothly without affecting sight alignment and trapping/resetting the trigger, can all be done on sort of autopilot leaving more brain power available for you to asses the situation, decide exactly when to fire, be moving to a better position, etc.

Yes. But it takes a lot of consistent repetitions to reach automaticity.

By "muscle memory is not real" do you mean training does not allow you to perform movements like this more accurately & efficiently in a subconscious manner?

No.

Now for the flinching or anticipation part, the way I understand (and I'm happy to be corrected if you can explain so that I understand better), if your repeated training teaches your brain that a specific step in this sequence produces a bang and sting in your palms and movement you didn't intend, then you will tend to subconsciously tense up and muscle into the gun right at that moment to brace against the shot your brain knows is coming.

Generally correct.

That's the anticipation & flinch, correct? But if you train the motions over and over without the bang (dry practice) you eliminate that response and do not incorporate a flinch into your subconscious routine.

Not correct. All dry firing does is further refine and ingrain exactly when the trigger will break. The moment the explosion happens in front of your face- your subconscious does not care at all about your dry fire. Well, point in fact, it immediately switches to “thanks to your dry fire, at this exact moment I know when the gun will explode and move. So, tense and brace before it happens even better”.

Also, during live fire it's not always easy to recognize a flinch, but with dry practice it's obnoxiously obvious. Point in, have a buddy balance a dime on your front sight, press the trigger front to rear without letting the dime fall off.

Balancing a dime and dry firing doesn’t show a flinch unless it is horrific- it just shows a consistent and smooth trigger press. If you know the gun is unloaded, your brain has no reaction. It is only when your subconscious believes that the pistol is loaded does it have a reaction (again unless it is a horrific flinch).


The only way to correct and remove flinching and anticipation is through Ball and Dummy drills. Your brain has to believe the pistol is loaded when it isn’t, and believe it is unloaded when it is loaded. Over, and over again.

So can you explain to me what you mean by "dry fire will actually make it worse,"?

See above about your subconscious knowing exactly when the trigger breaks the more you dry fire.

Agreed. I don't disagree with the premise of your podcast that a CNS hit is the only maul-stopping shot, and the requirements to do that on a frontal charge are accuracy and enough penetration to get through the skull. Furthermore I'll accept that a bear skull isn't bulletproof and a 22mag may well punch through it. I also agree ounces equal pounds and there's an advantage to a 30 round pistol that weighs less than a 16 round pistol, and that a lighter recoiling pistol will be back on target some fraction more quickly than a heavier recoiling pistol. But that last part I think is getting blown out of proportion. I have a G17 and a G20 and even with full power 220 grain hard casts they're just not that different to shoot. It's not like we're talking about an airweight 44mag.

You should get a shot timer and start shooting standard drills that features speed and accuracy. The FBI Bullseye Qual is a decent simple version.

There’s a measurable and relatively large drop in performance in demand from 9mm to 10mm hot loads.

Last thing, you said 10mm penetrates less than 9mm. Is there a specific test you're basing that on?

Properly calibrated organic gel.

 

[Reburn]

I shoot both striker fired, no manual safety pistols and manual safety 1911/2011. I get that a safety can help remove the possibility of a negligent discharge while holstering or drawing. 100 percent, makes sense. I also agree that a safety doesn't slow you down with good fundamentals. I'm on board.

But when people bring up that some rifles need to go off safe to unload, others scoff at it as a concern. Maybe those are two wildly different things to compare, but if you boil it down to "safe is better than no safe while manipulating", it seems contrary to the pistol point.

Those who scoff at rifles needing to be taken off saftey to unload have not yet had a rem 700 trigger come off safe and go bang. Again this is mostly limited to rem 700 triggers.

 

[IrkedCitizen]

Listening to the latest podcast

Pretty funny not so funny story about losing your mags...I came across a guy in the mtns of idaho who traveled a long ways just to some how drop his mag in the snow.. he was on his hands and knees sifting through the snow all along his back trail.. it was after dark so I couldn't tell if he was crying or not.

This was back when the only mag releases were 2 inch long on aftermarket stuff

Bring more mags !!!

Only takes one bullet. Single feed

 

[id_jon]

Those who scoff at rifles needing to be taken off saftey to unload have not yet had a rem 700 trigger come off safe and go bang. Again this is mostly limited to rem 700 triggers.

Bolt open before dropping the mag, always. Especially if its one of those goofy lightweight guns where the mag release is inside the trigger guard

 

[Formidilosus]

After a bit of a hiatus from pistols, did some shooting today with a few. Was not specially doing Bill Drills, but the Bill Drill was sort of it. All bill drills were clean (inside 8 ring) with all but a couple of shots with the PMR all in the 5.54” black of the B8 bull. Shot cold, back to back with no practice.


1911 45auto- 3.75 seconds
G17- 3.76 sec
Zev OZ9c with RMR (G19 size)- 3.68 sec
Staccato P2- 2.90 sec
PMR30- 2.27, 2.17, 1.92, 2.03, 1.92 seconds in order.

Then did two more times with the Staccato P2 at 2.20 and 2.13 seconds.

The biggest hindrance with the PMR 30 was the holster that I was using didn’t fit it well. Also the thumb safety is smaller than ideal- already have replacements on the way.

 

[fisherman983]

After a bit of a hiatus from pistols, did some shooting today with a few. Was not specially doing Bill Drills, but the Bill Drill was sort of it. All bill drills were clean (inside 8 ring) with all but a couple of shots with the PMR all in the 5.54” black of the B8 bull. Shot cold, back to back with no practice.


1911 45auto- 3.75 seconds
G17- 3.76 sec
Zev OZ9c with RMR (G19 size)- 3.68 sec
Staccato P2- 2.90 sec
PMR30- 2.27, 2.17, 1.92, 2.03, 1.92 seconds in order.

Then did two more times with the Staccato P2 at 2.20 and 2.13 seconds.

The biggest hindrance with the PMR 30 was the holster that I was using didn’t fit it well. Also the thumb safety is smaller than ideal- already have replacements on the way.

View attachment 692854


View attachment 692855

Which 22 mag ammo do you recommend for carrying?

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