The Shoot2hunt Podcast

[atmat]

This one didn’t. It take a bit to get going but man, it’s intense once it does.

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I don’t quite have 2 hours for a podcast (and won’t until a long drive in a few weeks). Mind typing a 30-sec summary?

 

[SteveAndTheCrigBoys]

I don’t remember where I heard this story, maybe the Exo podcast, but two guys got attacked by a brown bear in MT I believe. One had a 10mm and the other had his 300WM or similar. Even though they hit it with the 10mm several times, only the 300WM made the bear stop mauling them. Broke its shoulder. When they did the necropsy with law enforcement none of the 10mm penetrated to vitals. Don’t remember what bullets they said were used.

That combined with the notorious shootability issues of the 10mm led to me being comfortable with a 9mm. Heavy with 18 rounds in it but I shoot it well so I’m sticking with it.

 

[Chris_in_Idaho]

When they did the necropsy with law enforcement none of the 10mm penetrated to vitals. Don’t remember what bullets they said were used.

That combined with the notorious shootability issues of the 10mm...

Were they hits that were in line with the vitals and just didn't penetrate far enough, or were they simply non-vital hits?

The "notorious shootability issues with the 10mm" is laughable. Maybe some steel framed pistols suck for it, but a G20 is a pussycat with even the hottest loads.

 

[Gravel Road]

Timely podcast. Although we don't have bears in Kansas, I've decided to downsize my pistols due to some recently developing hand issues. My new Sig 10mm is going to get traded for either a 5.7x28 or 22 Mag. This will be for home protection and night predator control. Leaning towards 22 mag since it's way more available than 5.7. I have no concerns that it wouldn't work well for home protection.

 

[BjornF16]

I don’t remember where I heard this story, maybe the Exo podcast, but two guys got attacked by a brown bear in MT I believe. One had a 10mm and the other had his 300WM or similar. Even though they hit it with the 10mm several times, only the 300WM made the bear stop mauling them. Broke its shoulder. When they did the necropsy with law enforcement none of the 10mm penetrated to vitals. Don’t remember what bullets they said were used.

That combined with the notorious shootability issues of the 10mm led to me being comfortable with a 9mm. Heavy with 18 rounds in it but I shoot it well so I’m sticking with it.

If it’s the story I’m thinking it is, the 10mm were body shots from the side

 

[SteveAndTheCrigBoys]

If it’s the story I’m thinking it is, the 10mm were body shots from the side

Yeah, the way it was phrased was along the lines of "stopped before they hit vitals". So on track to hit them, but didn't make it. I'll see if I can dig it up.

 

[SteveAndTheCrigBoys]

Were they hits that were in line with the vitals and just didn't penetrate far enough, or were they simply non-vital hits?

The "notorious shootability issues with the 10mm" is laughable. Maybe some steel framed pistols suck for it, but a G20 is a pussycat with even the hottest loads.

You shoot a 10mm better than a 9mm?

 

[sickles107]

The Staccatos are solid- the CS and C are the way due the true 9mm mag and external extractor. However, the Staccato P and C2 is solid as well though the grip is fatter and the mags are a bit more finicky. Tisas makes some 9mm 1811’s that with goid mags and potentially a bit of extractor tuning, have been skid from what I’ve seen and they are sub $500.

If using a polymer 9mm it’s either a Sig P320 with thumb safety or M18, both with better sights and a Brouwer 1811 grip module. For a smaller pistol the Sig P365 with thumb safety.

I heard your comment about bill drill/splits going in order slowest to fastest, glock, sig, 2011, 22

Are you seeing much difference in real world time / hit rate between a compact and full size handguns?

ie m18/320 compact/carry, Staccato c, g19... versus M17/320 "full", Staccato p, g17

 

[ztc92]

If it’s the story I’m thinking it is, the 10mm were body shots from the side

This is bugging me now, I know I’ve heard this story, I had thought it was maybe the MeatEater podcast or Exo but can’t find it on either one. If it’s the same story, I believe they had hardcast lead bullets in the 10mm and the Game and Fish crew noted there was very little expansion or damage, though penetration was substantial. Similar to above, I also recall there was a broken shoulder but I thought that occurred from the 10mm and the bear kept attacking despite that but was unable to pivot/change direction and stumbled or something like that.

Now I need to find it and listen again…

 

[wintersoldia]

THis got me excited and now I can't find it anywhere, checked YT and the Site. @Ryan Avery what gives!? Give the people what they want!

When has giving people what they want ever worked out for anybody

 

[Chris_in_Idaho]

You shoot a 10mm better than a 9mm?

A slightly slower Bill Drill isn't exactly "notorious shootability issues."

I'm no badass but some years ago I took a 4 day handgun class that ended with a man on man competition. Out of a class of 60 I managed to beat the other 59 (mostly 9mm shooting) students with my 10mm Glock. The class included several cops along with a bunch of regular guys like me. I didn't really have much handgun experience before the class except plinking. If 10mm was so notoriously unshootable, shouldn't I have finished in the bottom half of the class?

I get recoil leading to flinching with a comparison like 223 vs 300 win mag. But a 10mm full sized polymer handgun is just a non event recoil wise. Being afraid of it going off should never enter your mind. If you have a flinch with a G20 it's because you don't know how to grip a gun or you're not doing enough dry practice. That will be the same for a 10, a 9, or a 25acp, doesn't matter. Train 10 to 1 dry fire to live and your muscle memory will be 100% putting the round on target and 0% worrying about recoil.

As far as speed of follow up shots, simple physics says that if you get more muzzle rise, it's going to take more time to return back onto target. Still doesn't equal "notorious shootability issues." And in reality this is going to be a much larger issue for someone who doesn't know how to shoot a handgun. You should never have to consciously bring the gun back to a firing position and look for the sights again, it should snap exactly back on its own. I was taught weaver stance, which I'm told is obsolete... but when you're pushing with your strong side hand and pulling against it with your support hand, the gun is spring loaded to where you're aiming and the instant the slide returns home its mass snaps the gun back forward and the sights also return to target. Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang the sights just keep returning right back to target. Now, with a 9mm the whole cycle is probably quicker, I wouldn't dispute that, but I don't think anyone is getting mauled due to the difference between 0.21 splits and 0.25 splits (or whatever they would be).

If you want to argue a 9mm is lighter to carry or the slimmer grip feels nicer in your hand or ammo is cheaper to practice with. That's all true. A G20 is like holding a red brick. But it is not unshootable.

In my experience, both myself and observing friends & coworkers, the biggest problem with a full size carry gun is that nobody wants to carry it after the first week. The first rule of a gunfight (or bear fight) is have a gun. So, buy one you will actually carry. Then, train train train with it, especially dry practice. You can't miss fast enough to matter.

 

[Formidilosus]

A slightly slower Bill Drill isn't exactly "notorious shootability issues."

“Notoriously unshootable” is a bit much, but- on the bill drill statement, it’s about 20-30% slower for a competent shooter for the same on demand 100% hit rate. That’s quite a bit.

If 10mm was so notoriously unshootable, shouldn't I have finished in the bottom half of the class?

No. It means those you were shooting against weren’t skilled.

But a 10mm full sized polymer handgun is just a non event recoil wise. Being afraid of it going off should never enter your mind. If you have a flinch with a G20 it's because you don't know how to grip a gun or you're not doing enough dry practice. That will be the same for a 10, a 9, or a 25acp, doesn't matter. Train 10 to 1 dry fire to live and your muscle memory will be 100% putting the round on target and 0% worrying about recoil.

You do not know how anticipation or flinching works. Your grip, nor dry fire have anything to do with anticipation. Dry fire will actually make it worse. “Muscle memory” is not real, and again has nothing to do with flinching.

but I don't think anyone is getting mauled due to the difference between 0.21 splits and 0.25 splits (or whatever they would be).

When talking about actually hitting with every shot, that .04 second difference in splits is about what a world class shooting is doing. It’s nowhere near the difference with the general person.




The 10mm works. It’s that it does not functionally do anything that a 9mm doesn’t do, and yet it penetrates less, costs more, recoils more, is slower to shoot, causes more anticipation/flinching, and the pistols are bigger. None of those things are “advantages”. The same can be said for 357 sig, 40 S&W, and 45 auto.

 

[Bearwhisky]

Striker fired pistols with thumb safetys lol…is this a troll or serious?


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[Reburn]

Striker fired pistols with thumb safetys lol…is this a troll or serious?


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Whats wrong with striker fired with thumb safetys?

 

[Bearwhisky]

I don’t understand the point of having a safety on a striker fired pistol that is stored in a quality holster. Could maybe see a use case for one if you were to pocket carry one, or carry mexican style in the waistline with no holster. Other than that, it makes no sense.


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[BjornF16]

I don’t understand the point of having a safety on a striker fired pistol that is stored in a quality holster. Could maybe see a use case for one if you were to pocket carry one, or carry mexican style in the waistline with no holster. Other than that, it makes no sense.


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I don't run external safeties on my pistols...but I will say that I get paranoid in the field because my pistol is being transferred between various holsters during the course of a hunt: either bino case holster or backpack belt holster into waist belt holster.

The one time I left it in the bino holster while eating my lunch is the one time I actually needed it.

I can see the desire for an external safety

 

[Bearwhisky]

I don't run external safeties on my pistols...but I will say that I get paranoid in the field because my pistol is being transferred between various holsters during the course of a hunt: either bino case holster or backpack belt holster into waist belt holster.

The one time I left it in the bino holster while eating my lunch is the one time I actually needed it.

I can see the desire for an external safety

No offense but if transferring a loaded firearm between holsters makes you paranoid, you should probably spend more time training with it. Keep finger off the trigger, watch the gun into the quality holster to make sure there are no obstructions and it cannot go off. The addition of an external safety does not change that process and if anything could add a false sense of security leading to complacency. Just my opinion.


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[Reburn]

I don’t understand the point of having a safety on a striker fired pistol that is stored in a quality holster. Could maybe see a use case for one if you were to pocket carry one, or carry mexican style in the waistline with no holster. Other than that, it makes no sense.


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As form said.
its putting the pistol back in the holster that can cause a ND if the trigger gets caught on a piece of clothing.

I have pistols with and without. I feel more comfortable unholstering and holstering a pistol with a saftey then without. I can make an arguement for them as well.

 

[Bearwhisky]

As form said.
its putting the pistol back in the holster that can cause a ND if the trigger gets caught on a piece of clothing.

I have pistols with and without. I feel more comfortable unholstering and holstering a pistol with a saftey then without. I can make an arguement for them as well.

As stated above, watch the gun into the holster to make sure no obstructions. You should be doing that with an external safety too. The addition of an external safety does not give you a free pass on basic handling practices. And that is my big problem with them, the false sense of security. Rely on the safety, get complacent on handling practices and dont watch gun into quality holster, one day safety isnt fully engaged and you shoot your toes off.


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[wind gypsy]

This is bugging me now, I know I’ve heard this story, I had thought it was maybe the MeatEater podcast or Exo but can’t find it on either one. If it’s the same story, I believe they had hardcast lead bullets in the 10mm and the Game and Fish crew noted there was very little expansion or damage, though penetration was substantial. Similar to above, I also recall there was a broken shoulder but I thought that occurred from the 10mm and the bear kept attacking despite that but was unable to pivot/change direction and stumbled or something like that.

Now I need to find it and listen again…

I think that is the design intent of hardcast pistol bullets.