The Shoot2hunt Podcast

[Reburn]

As stated above, watch the gun into the holster to make sure no obstructions. You should be doing that with an external safety too. The addition of an external safety does not give you a free pass on basic handling practices. And that is my big problem with them, the false sense of security. Rely on the safety, get complacent on handling practices and dont watch gun into quality holster, one day safety isnt fully engaged and you shoot your toes off.


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Yes sir I understand and agree with most of what you said.

However what is the downside to having a thumb saftey? I cant see one.

 

[BjornF16]

No offense but if transferring a loaded firearm between holsters makes you paranoid, you should probably spend more time training with it. Keep finger off the trigger, watch the gun into the quality holster to make sure there are no obstructions and it cannot go off. The addition of an external safety does not change that process and if anything could add a false sense of security leading to complacency. Just my opinion.


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Thanks for your concern. I spend plenty of time training with firearms and have been around them my entire adult life to include 20+ years in the military.

Perhaps "paranoid" is the wrong word..."cautious" may be better.

ADs happen. I've been around them. From not checking clear properly to obstruction in holster depressing trigger. It happens.

Transferring between holsters is not "stored" in a holster, as your earlier comment suggested. That is all...

 

[Bearwhisky]

Yes sir I understand and agree with most of what you said.

However what is the downside to having a thumb saftey? I cant see one.

For one, the complacency that they can lead to as previously mentioned, but admittedly that can also be avoided by proper mindset and training.

The main downside to them for me is as follows. It is very easy to practice and train yourself to handle a loaded striker fired pistol with no safety and not shoot yourself. In a controlled environment there is absolutely no reason for the gun to go bang if you don’t want it to. What is VERY hard to train for is a situation that is out of your control. Being in a scuffle (with an animal or human) rolling around with bloody or wet hands, etc. trying to engage a tic tac size lever to make the gun go off. It is an unnecessary added layer that only has a benefit on the front end (where you are in control of the situation).

Yes it is an unlikely scenario, but seeing that it serves no purpose if proper handling is practiced, it is an added layer that can only potentially cause a problem in my opinion. This is less of a factor on SA/DA guns that have large protruded external safety mechanism with a thumb shelf since they are designed into the firearm and not an after thought like most striker fired safetys. But, these are necessary on these types of firearms because there is no internal safety mechanism and the triggers are so light.


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[Gorp2007]

I don’t remember where I heard this story, maybe the Exo podcast, but two guys got attacked by a brown bear in MT I believe. One had a 10mm and the other had his 300WM or similar. Even though they hit it with the 10mm several times, only the 300WM made the bear stop mauling them. Broke its shoulder. When they did the necropsy with law enforcement none of the 10mm penetrated to vitals. Don’t remember what bullets they said were used.

That combined with the notorious shootability issues of the 10mm led to me being comfortable with a 9mm. Heavy with 18 rounds in it but I shoot it well so I’m sticking with it.

Episode 310 of the ME podcast might be the one you’re thinking of, Bear Talk starts at the 1:10 mark.

Two guys out elk hunting, wander into a sow and cubs, sow responds exactly how you’d expect.

Sow starts mauling Guy 1, so Guy 2 shoots it with the 300 WM and hits it high shoulder. It turns on Guy 2 and knocks him down, then Guy 1 brings over his 10mm. Guy 2 shoots at it 4 times with the 10mm, two gut shots, one in the spine, and one miss. Working theory is the spine shot ended the encounter.

Takeaways for me:
-Body shots with a rifle or pistol are not definitive
-CNS hits are definitive
-10 mm body shots penetrated all the way through, but wound channels were unimpressive (using 220 hard cast)

 

[ztc92]

Episode 310 of the ME podcast might be the one you’re thinking of, Bear Talk starts at the 1:10 mark.

Two guys out elk hunting, wander into a sow and cubs, sow responds exactly how you’d expect.

Sow starts mauling Guy 1, so Guy 2 shoots it with the 300 WM and hits it high shoulder. It turns on Guy 2 and knocks him down, then Guy 1 brings over his 10mm. Guy 2 shoots at it 4 times with the 10mm, two gut shots, one in the spine, and one miss. Working theory is the spine shot ended the encounter.

Takeaways for me:
-Body shots with a rifle or pistol are not definitive
-CNS hits are definitive
-10 mm body shots penetrated all the way through, but wound channels were unimpressive (using 220 hard cast)

Thank you, that’s the one I’m remembering and I think is the one referenced earlier in the thread for anyone else wondering.

 

[Formidilosus]

As stated above, watch the gun into the holster to make sure no obstructions. You should be doing that with an external safety too. The addition of an external safety does not give you a free pass on basic handling practices. And that is my big problem with them, the false sense of security. Rely on the safety, get complacent on handling practices and dont watch gun into quality holster, one day safety isnt fully engaged and you shoot your toes off.

Sure. That’s why you don’t have safeties on your rifles or shotguns, right? I mean a safety just makes you complacent.

 

[Bearwhisky]

Sure. That’s why you don’t have safeties on your rifles or shotguns, right? I mean a safety just makes you complacent.

Do you walk around carrying your rifle in a kydex holster? Not even comparable.


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[Formidilosus]

For one, the complacency that they can lead to as previously mentioned, but admittedly that can also be avoided by proper mindset and training.

. Having safety makes one complacent, but not having one makes someone a perfect gun handler? That is a strawman, and ridiculous.

The main downside to them for me is as follows. It is very easy to practice and train yourself to handle a loaded striker fired pistol with no safety and not shoot yourself. In a controlled environment there is absolutely no reason for the gun to go bang if you don’t want it to. What is VERY hard to train for is a situation that is out of your control.

If the gun is in your hand, you are in control of it- safety or not.

Being in a scuffle (with an animal or human) rolling around with bloody or wet hands, etc. trying to engage a tic tac size lever to make the gun go off.

So you can’t flip a lever that in any proper grip and technique gets taken off as a matter of establishing the grip, but you can “engage” a tic tac size lever to make the gun fire? And one to reload, and one to drop the slide? Oh, and see the sights to aim?

It is an unnecessary added layer that only has a benefit on the front end (where you are in control of the situation).

It has a benefit everywhere. A properly designed thumb safety is only an advantage, never a disadvantage.

Yes it is an unlikely scenario, but seeing that it serves no purpose if proper handling is practiced, it is an added layer that can only potentially cause a problem in my opinion.

So why do you have a safety on your hunting rifle? Just follow proper handling.

This is less of a factor on SA/DA guns that have large protruded external safety mechanism with a thumb shelf since they are designed into the firearm and not an after thought like most striker fired safetys.

What striker fired safeties are you referring to?

But, these are necessary on these types of firearms because there is no internal safety mechanism and the triggers are so light.

Neither one of those statement is correct. There are plenty of 1911/2011’s with internal safety mechanisms, and striker fired guns have almost all been turned into striker fired single actions with short, light triggers, and safeties.

 

[Formidilosus]

Do you walk around carrying your rifle in a kydex holster? Not even comparable.

Do you never pull your pistol out of its holster?

 

[Bearwhisky]

Do you never pull your pistol out of its holster?

Yes, to either safely manipulate it or to shoot something. Neither of which requires a safety. The reason they are on rifles is because when moving, you carry them around slung in the open and the trigger area can snag on things. This is a non issue with a pistol that is in a holster, so a safety serves no purpose and is only a possible point of failure when trying to engage.


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[Formidilosus]

Yes, to either safely manipulate it or to shoot something. Neither of which requires a safety. The reason they are on rifles is because when moving, you carry them around slung in the open and the trigger area can snag on things. This is a non issue with a pistol that is in a holster, so a safety serves no purpose and is only a possible point of failure when trying to engage.

Hmm. You never, ever have your pistol in your hands other than drawing to immediately shoot? Ever?

 

[Bearwhisky]

Hmm. You never, ever have your pistol in your hands other than drawing to immediately shoot? Ever?

Yes, hence the “safely manipulate” part. That includes loading/unloading, holstering, moving it from storage location a to b, etc. None of which require a safety to do safely. If I wanted to nonchalantly walk around in the woods with it loaded and in my hands, a safety would make sense.

 

[Formidilosus]

Yes, hence the “safely manipulate” part. That includes loading/unloading, holstering, moving it from storage location a to b, etc. None of which require a safety to do safely.

Everyone safely manipulates until they are distracted.

Can you please explain, in-depth, how someone can be competent enough to have 100% perfect gun handling, yet a thumb safety is some magical device that makes them fall apart?

And can you also explain how having a single point of failure, with no backups, is better or “safer” than having a backup? You can use a vehicle how seatbelts and airbags are only a thing to make a driver complacent because if you drive perfectly, they are unnecessary… as an example.

If I wanted to walk around in the woods with it loaded and in my hands, a safety would make sense.

Hmmm. So, there’s no situation where you would pull a pistol, and not immediately shoot it? You know- like say maybe in the woods around camp with a bear? Or after shooting a bear? Or about 50 other scenarios.

 

[Mike D Texas]

Thank you, that’s the one I’m remembering and I think is the one referenced earlier in the thread for anyone else wondering.

It’s been a while since I listened to the podcast I posted but that is not the story.

As I recall this guy was at his home property in the woods alone when this happened.


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[Reburn]

For one, the complacency that they can lead to as previously mentioned, but admittedly that can also be avoided by proper mindset and training.

The main downside to them for me is as follows. It is very easy to practice and train yourself to handle a loaded striker fired pistol with no safety and not shoot yourself. In a controlled environment there is absolutely no reason for the gun to go bang if you don’t want it to. What is VERY hard to train for is a situation that is out of your control. Being in a scuffle (with an animal or human) rolling around with bloody or wet hands, etc. trying to engage a tic tac size lever to make the gun go off. It is an unnecessary added layer that only has a benefit on the front end (where you are in control of the situation).

Yes it is an unlikely scenario, but seeing that it serves no purpose if proper handling is practiced, it is an added layer that can only potentially cause a problem in my opinion. This is less of a factor on SA/DA guns that have large protruded external safety mechanism with a thumb shelf since they are designed into the firearm and not an after thought like most striker fired safetys. But, these are necessary on these types of firearms because there is no internal safety mechanism and the triggers are so light.


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Everything I would have replied with has already been said. We will agree to disagree.

 

[id_jon]

It’s been a while since I listened to the podcast I posted but that is not the story.

As I recall this guy was at his home property in the woods alone when this happened.


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I'm listening to it now, he was just running his (30sih) hounds for conditioning, wasn't even hunting. Definitely worth the listen so far.

 

[Jon Boy]

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[5811]

 

[Lawnboi]

Shot the m&p 22mag. Wow.

Time for some reliability testing.

 

[Chris_in_Idaho]

“Notoriously unshootable” is a bit much...

This was the point of my post in a nutshell.

No. It means those you were shooting against weren’t skilled.

Yes, but I was (still am, to be honest) equally unskilled. My point being that 10mm recoil isn't the gigantic hindrance that it's being made out to be on this thread.

You do not know how anticipation or flinching works. Your grip, nor dry fire have anything to do with anticipation. Dry fire will actually make it worse. “Muscle memory” is not real, and again has nothing to do with flinching.

Hhmmm. You have a history of backing up what you say and being right, so I'll look at this as a learning opportunity for me.

If by "muscle memory is not real" you mean muscles don't actually contain little brains with memories inside, then yes, I agree. But when I used the term muscle memory I was referring to training a series of movements over and over so that they can be performed quickly and accurately while requiring less conscious attention to be taken away from present tasks like situational awareness. In this case, drawing and presenting the pistol to the firing position with sights aligned and on target and pressing the trigger smoothly without affecting sight alignment and trapping/resetting the trigger, can all be done on sort of autopilot leaving more brain power available for you to asses the situation, decide exactly when to fire, be moving to a better position, etc. By "muscle memory is not real" do you mean training does not allow you to perform movements like this more accurately & efficiently in a subconscious manner?

Now for the flinching or anticipation part, the way I understand (and I'm happy to be corrected if you can explain so that I understand better), if your repeated training teaches your brain that a specific step in this sequence produces a bang and sting in your palms and movement you didn't intend, then you will tend to subconsciously tense up and muscle into the gun right at that moment to brace against the shot your brain knows is coming. That's the anticipation & flinch, correct? But if you train the motions over and over without the bang (dry practice) you eliminate that response and do not incorporate a flinch into your subconscious routine.

Also, during live fire it's not always easy to recognize a flinch, but with dry practice it's obnoxiously obvious. Point in, have a buddy balance a dime on your front sight, press the trigger front to rear without letting the dime fall off.

So can you explain to me what you mean by "dry fire will actually make it worse,"?

The 10mm works. It’s that it does not functionally do anything that a 9mm doesn’t do, and yet it penetrates less, costs more, recoils more, is slower to shoot, causes more anticipation/flinching, and the pistols are bigger. None of those things are “advantages”. The same can be said for 357 sig, 40 S&W, and 45 auto.

Agreed. I don't disagree with the premise of your podcast that a CNS hit is the only maul-stopping shot, and the requirements to do that on a frontal charge are accuracy and enough penetration to get through the skull. Furthermore I'll accept that a bear skull isn't bulletproof and a 22mag may well punch through it. I also agree ounces equal pounds and there's an advantage to a 30 round pistol that weighs less than a 16 round pistol, and that a lighter recoiling pistol will be back on target some fraction more quickly than a heavier recoiling pistol. But that last part I think is getting blown out of proportion. I have a G17 and a G20 and even with full power 220 grain hard casts they're just not that different to shoot. It's not like we're talking about an airweight 44mag.

Last thing, you said 10mm penetrates less than 9mm. Is there a specific test you're basing that on? I've shot Underwood 220 hard cast 10mm through 14 water jugs (sorry, too poor for FBI gel).

I guess this is a good excuse to order up some 9mm hard cast to compare.