THE Perfect hunting arrow

[Sapcut]

Can I ask you what your current “indestructible hunting arrow” is? Arrow, broadhead, etc. Any footers?

Gold Tip Ultralight 300, TuffHead 300, 200 grain Tuff adapter, aluminum insert, 7” single footing, 1.5” double footing over single footing and over flat shoulder of adapter snug behind broadhead.

I designed the Tuff adapter for TuffHead a few years ago from a prototype I made and used before that. The bottom of tapered portion has a flat shoulder area (1/8-3/8” long depending on weight) then the threaded shaft. Perfect for sliding the double footing over. This bridges the weakest point of shaft where the insert joins the threaded shaft.

The long footing certainly strengthens killing end of shaft but it also stiffens the shaft to handle the weight up front and tune for perfect flight. I would never build and shoot a shaft without a long footing system of some kind. It makes an hunting arrow crazy efficient, easier to tune and boneproof.

Last year I killed the pig and several deer with same arrow including a buck at 27 yards off the ground. Quartering to shot entered the shoulder blade and exited rib cage. Also killed a big doe at about 20 yards with arrow entering flank and exiting shoulder stuck in ground. Turning a gut shot into recovered nutrition.

 

[Trumpkin The Dwarf]

This guy gets it. Get ready for the anti foc brigade and the a 80 grain arrow with field point will kill a deer if you hit them in the heart.View attachment 300208

Where did anyone say they were anti foc? Maybe I missed it.

 

[TaterTot]

Where did anyone say they were anti foc? Maybe I missed it.

Check the first post. When you refer to anyone who takes the work of Ashby into consideration when building a hunting arrow a "kool aid drinker" what exactly does that imply to you?

The irony in that first post is almost to much as he goes on to list things that are important to him that are literally in Ashbys factors for penetration and listed higher in that list than FOC.

 

[LostArra]

I build and shoot arrows between 850-1000ish grains for my only bow, [email protected] Widow recurve.

Gold Tip Ultralight 300, TuffHead 300, 200 grain Tuff adapter, aluminum insert, 7” single footing, 1.5” double footing over single footing and over flat shoulder of adapter snug behind broadhead.

For your bow weight and draw length those arrows don't sound outrageous other than you put a lot of effort into the build.

I'm just thankful that 70# isn't required to kill a deer or hog or elk.

 

[Sapcut]

I'm just thankful that 70# isn't required to kill a deer or hog or elk.

I agree…. Neither is 35#s required to “kill” a deer, pig or elk…. If you happen to hit it perfectly. If you’re only satisfied with hitting the perfect soft tissue shot and not killing the animal with other shots…. then shoot pretty much any setup you want.

 

[Trumpkin The Dwarf]

Check the first post. When you refer to anyone who takes the work of Ashby into consideration when building a hunting arrow a "kool aid drinker" what exactly does that imply to you?

The irony in that first post is almost to much as he goes on to list things that are important to him that are literally in Ashbys factors for penetration and listed higher in that list than FOC.

That doesn't imply being anti-foc. It's impossible to build a durable hunting arrow without having a reasonably high foc. Take an insert that you trust on heavy impacts, add a broadhead that can withstand heavy bone, and you're already at 175-200 grains of point weight (Aluminum is not trustworthy as an insert imo). Take a heavy arrow, lets say 10 gpi, and multiply that by an average archer's arrow length of 30", and the weight of the shaft is not even twice that of the head and insert.

@Beendare is an outspoken fan of durable inserts and broadheads. His preference is brass HIT inserts, if I'm not mistaken. By definition, he is not anti-foc.

Maybe he'd like to explain the kool-aid comment, and perhaps it was a mistaken in word choice. However, I took it as a critique of the phenomena wherein trad archers focus exclusively on single bevel heads and extreme front of center arrows, and agonize about overall arrow weight, being utterly convinced that anything less than 650 grains is unethical. But there are a host of accomplished trad bow killers who can tell you that a sharp 4 blade double bevel with 500+ grains of arrow weight will go through any animal in North America if the arrow flies straight and has decent speed.

But that was just my assumption. I could be mistaken.

 

[TaterTot]

I agree…. Neither is 35#s required to “kill” a deer, pig or elk…. If you happen to hit it perfectly. If you’re only satisfied with hitting the perfect soft tissue shot and not killing the animal with other shots…. then shoot pretty much any setup you want.

Yup exactly. You could kill a deer with a field point and a heart shot. I wouldn't recommend using that as your go to hunting setup though.

Like the old saying goes. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

Anyone who says shot placement is everything must spend a lot of time punching paper and never shoot at moving targets. That or they are the most amazing archer in the world that has never missed.

 

[Cng]

Aluminum is not trustworthy as an insert imo

I hope I don’t seem like I’m stirring things up at all. I’m genuinely just trying to learn from both sides of the spectrum.

Can I ask why aluminum inserts are not trustworthy? I’ve only killed one whitetail doe with trad gear so far, and the arrow with stock insert sailed through the rib cage, no problem. I didn’t hit bone besides glancing ribs, so I don’t have a lot of anecdotal evidence or anything.

However, I have also taken up stumping as my new favorite past time, and so I had to try to build a more durable arrow for that. The carbon seemed like the weak link to me, rather than the insert. I made some 1.5” long aluminum footers, which worked for a while until nocks started splitting the tail end of my shafts. So I made some smaller .5” nock collars, and I haven’t cracked or broken a shaft since then, including the ones that missed my target in the backyard and slammed directly into my cinder block garage.

So how much more durability do I need? Or is it just a matter of adding a little more weight up front?

 

[Sapcut]

There are stronger material options available particularly stainless. However, I use 15 grain aluminum inserts all the time and have never had a failure. I feel sure it is because of my footing system. The light aluminum insert is a good option that allows for other heavy components to work together like I want.

My single footing fits over the carbon shaft butting up against the back of the insert lip…. not over the insert lip. This totally prevents the insert from backing into the shaft. The double footing slides over the insert lip and adapter creating more crazy strength. And that is why the weaker aluminum material is irrelevant in my arrows.

Splits on the nock end of carbon shafts when hitting hard objects typically occurs with lighter weight arrows flying at decent speeds. That is because low mass arrows stop really quick and/or bounce off upon impact. Heavier arrows hit and penetrate or just do not completely stop as quick. There is a difference.

And I totally agree that the carbon material of my arrow shafts, at least, are the weakest link. A long 6-8” footing decreases that weak link.

 

[LostArra]

I agree…. Neither is 35#s required to “kill” a deer, pig or elk…. If you happen to hit it perfectly. If you’re only satisfied with hitting the perfect soft tissue shot and not killing the animal with other shots…. then shoot pretty much any setup you want.

My comment is that few people can accurately shoot a 70# recurve. I cannot but I haven't found it necessary to kill big game up to and including elk.
I do wait for perfect shot opportunities. I cannot count on my gear to save me from a bad shot decision or a miss. If I hit heavy bone, I missed or took a shi**y shot and have to live with the consequences.

 

[Sapcut]

I cannot count on my gear to save me from a bad shot decision or a miss. If I hit heavy bone, I missed or took a shi**y shot and have to live with the consequences.

Other than the Word of God, nothing is for sure and everything is about increasing our chances within the scope of our pursuits. And just like your decision made in your quote above, we can all make the decision to carry the biggest stick we can to maximize our chances or not…. before we even get to the woods. And we both live with the consequences.

 

[TaterTot]

There are stronger material options available particularly stainless. However, I use 15 grain aluminum inserts all the time and have never had a failure. I feel sure it is because of my footing system. The light aluminum insert is a good option that allows for other heavy components to work together like I want.

My single footing fits over the carbon shaft butting up against the back of the insert lip…. not over the insert lip. This totally prevents the insert from backing into the shaft. The double footing slides over the insert lip and adapter creating more crazy strength. And that is why the weaker aluminum material is irrelevant in my arrows.

Splits on the nock end of carbon shafts when hitting hard objects typically occurs with lighter weight arrows flying at decent speeds. That is because low mass arrows stop really quick and/or bounce off upon impact. Heavier arrows hit and penetrate or just do not completely stop as quick. There is a difference.

And I totally agree that the carbon material of my arrow shafts, at least, are the weakest link. A long 6-8” footing decreases that weak link.

Do you have pictures of your footing you are using and how it's setup? I think I get what you're saying.

 

[TaterTot]

My comment is that few people can accurately shoot a 70# recurve. I cannot but I haven't found it necessary to kill big game up to and including elk.
I do wait for perfect shot opportunities. I cannot count on my gear to save me from a bad shot decision or a miss. If I hit heavy bone, I missed or took a shi**y shot and have to live with the consequences.

Or you could build an arrow that has the ability to turn shitty shot into a recovered animal.

This is what I don't get about the plan for the best approach to building hunting arrows. You acknowledge that you might miss then just shrug you shoulders and go, oh well, nothing I can do about it.

 

[LostArra]

Or you could build an arrow that has the ability to turn shitty shot into a recovered animal.

This is what I don't get about the plan for the best approach to building hunting arrows. You acknowledge that you might miss then just shrug you shoulders and go, oh well, nothing I can do about it.

I try very hard to eliminate the shitty shot. That decision is made before the arrow is released. I want slam dunks broadside or slight quartering away but animals do crazy stuff. I feel confident in the accuracy of my 505gr arrow with 225 up front (insert+broadhead) but I don't count on it busting up an elk humerus/shoulder blade joint or even a high shield hit on a hog. If I hit that joint I just missed and all the arrow build technology in the world isn't going to change the result from a 52# recurve. Sapcut's 70# recurve with a 31" draw gives him a few more options.

 

[Sapcut]

Do you have pictures of your footing you are using and how it's setup? I think I get what you're saying.

Here are a few pics showing the basic setup. I've been using this simple process for years with excellent results but now several companies have the larger outsert collars on the market that work great if the small collar is your thing.

 

[Trumpkin The Dwarf]

I hope I don’t seem like I’m stirring things up at all. I’m genuinely just trying to learn from both sides of the spectrum.

Can I ask why aluminum inserts are not trustworthy? I’ve only killed one whitetail doe with trad gear so far, and the arrow with stock insert sailed through the rib cage, no problem. I didn’t hit bone besides glancing ribs, so I don’t have a lot of anecdotal evidence or anything.

However, I have also taken up stumping as my new favorite past time, and so I had to try to build a more durable arrow for that. The carbon seemed like the weak link to me, rather than the insert. I made some 1.5” long aluminum footers, which worked for a while until nocks started splitting the tail end of my shafts. So I made some smaller .5” nock collars, and I haven’t cracked or broken a shaft since then, including the ones that missed my target in the backyard and slammed directly into my cinder block garage.

So how much more durability do I need? Or is it just a matter of adding a little more weight up front?

I guess I should clarify, that I don't trust aluminum inserts on their own. With footers, sure, they can hold up, and then you're right back into a reasonable FOC range. I personally have issues with cross threading after hard hits when I shoot the aluminum easton HIT inserts. I much prefer the brass inserts, and with those you can usually skip the footer.

 

[Sapcut]

I used brass inserts in the past quite a bit. When constantly tinkering to get my setup as precise as possible, brass inserts was just too much weight. Really because I would rather have the heavier adapter in that particular build. The other build option I really like is a stainless adapter/insert setup. No threads or potential weak joint anywhere.

But with me personally wanting heavy arrows with maximum FOC, it is all about weight management with several different good options.

The other valuable benefit I have commonly found with extreme FOC (30+%) with longer footings is that the arrow spine window is much larger. For example, the 910 grainers I mentioned are for deer and hogs with the TuffHead 300. If I so choose, I can change broadheads to the Big Jim 250 three blade for deer dropping 50 grains….OR for elk I will change from the 300 to the 225 Tuffhead or the 190 grain Meathead. Dropping 110 grains and arrow still flys properly.

 

[GreenNDark Timber]

Or you could build an arrow that has the ability to turn shitty shot into a recovered animal.

This is what I don't get about the plan for the best approach to building hunting arrows. You acknowledge that you might miss then just shrug you shoulders and go, oh well, nothing I can do about it.

People have different opinions of what that arrow looks like. Sapcut has outlined his version above and it sounds like a solid option for what he's looking for. Mine looks a little different. I shoot a bows that are right at 60# at 29" and arrows from 595-615gr (usually right at 600). I know my arrow will blow through most of the animals I'm shooting at. I also know on deer and elk (my primary targets), there are only a couple bones on their entire body that I can't penetrate. The total square inches of those bones is a fraction of the the total square inches of soft material that I can penetrate. The more or that material I can cut with one shot the better my recovery odds are. I feel much more confident shooting a large 3 blade (1-1/4") or a 4 blade head than a 1-1/6" wide 2 blade. That doesn't mean Sapcut's opinion is wrong, we're just building our arrows for a different kind of "oh shit" shot.

 

[roosiebull]

I've killed a couple hogs- about 70# and 120# with my light setup; 40# ILF recurve, 370gr arrow that had a tiny 2 blade...and the I had a buddy shoot a giant boar through the shield with a 45# Das recurve and a 425gr arrow, Woodsman BH- all full pass throughs and the arrows never slowed down through the animals.

Small sample^ size- but I've seen it work.

__

So you think I could shave a few grains from my 1376gr arrows? Haha... that’s pretty cool, I know I have heard some things over the years that surprised me, like arrows poking out the other side of a bull moose with a mid 40# recurve... goes to show.

I still have a small mental barrier, like when I’m shooting my compound at my reinhart 18-1, arrows almost poke out the other side... then I shoot my 52# recurve and arrows go in a couple inches... huge energy difference there.... a pass through on a bull elk is not a given with my compound (unless I only hit ribs) so it’s a little tough for me to want to shave energy from my recurve, even though I know better, I’m going to have to live it before I really trust it.

I also know foam is not a good replacement for a live animal when judging penetration potential. I have shaved about 100gr off my recurve arrows, I’m down to about 535gr and my brain likes the gaps a lot more with that.

hunting with a recurve feels like starting over in a lot of ways.... my bow feels inadequate when standing there with a big roosie closing the distance... that same feeling I had with a compound before I had killed an elk with it... luckily, I know better, but there is a barrier there that I look forward to breaking

 

[Sapcut]

Never owning a compound, I still respect most compound bow holders as in general they are the best bow hunters I have conversed or hunted with. Ironically what so many of said bow holders do not respect is what a ridiculously efficient and violent arrow propeller those wheels really are. They can do both… fling a heavy arrow really fast. However it does seem that recently more compounders are seeing the significant advantages to mass, momentum, single bevels and structural integrity. No doubt the recovery rates will increase.