THE Perfect hunting arrow

[Cng]

As someone just here to learn as much as I can, can we agree to leave the issue of EFOC trajectory here and move on?

I’d still like to learn what I can from this thread and don’t want to see it get knocked off course with bickering. What do you say?

 

[TaterTot]

I'm not going to argue with you guys but be aware your guru's claim was laughed out of the the legit archery community when it defied the laws of physics. When the physics guys questioned his data- it turns out he wasn't even using a bow and arrows....but weighted straws. He still does in his dog and pony shows. [why not smoke and mirrors too?]

Ashby does make some good points reiterating what we have known for centuries; perfect arrow flight, Structural integrity and an efficient BH...but then he goes off the rails with his pet theories.

Sap, Yes I have done testing with very high FOC arrows back when I was a much better shooter. while developing a Water Buffalo arrow....and they were less accurate than avg FOC arrows. It seems massive tip weight can cause inconsistencies on the launch- something none of the Extreme FOC guys ever talk about, they only talk about the other 1/2 of the equation; an arrow in flight. My bet is they can't shoot good enough to see the negatives.

Worth mentioning that no pro in any of the archery disciplines shoots EFOC- Zero. If it was better - in the wind, whatever- those guys would be using it- Not a single one does. THAT should tell you something.

Taters EFOC "needs less fletch' comment is hogwash.

Less fletch is a function of a perfectly spined arrow. My 375 gr bare shaft flies perfect in my 40# bow with an FOC of about 10%- ANY bare shaft arrow that flies perfect in a bow needs less fletching....you don't need massive tip weight to do that.

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You bareshaft with broad heads? Oh, you don't. Weird. An efoc arrow requires less fletch to overcome the steering effect of a bladed broadhead.

Thats a fact.

Tradlab has the data to back it up.

At least your post was funny though.

"I'm not going to argue with you"

Proceeds to write two pages of text arguing.

 

[Sapcut]

Cng, I agree.

Correct. I have no problem bareshaftimg with broadheads. Bareshafting balanced arrows with broadheads will kill your neighbors cat just like the “balanced” diet is killing all the people it deceives.

 

[Beendare]

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[Btaylor]

So in the context of the thread title, I would like to pose this question. If we are predominantly hunting north american critters and we know they are not, as a general rule, nearly as tough to put an arrow through as big african game, why is there such an emphasis on small cutting diameter heads? In my mind, the perfect hunting arrow is the delivery vehicle capable of more times than not putting the largest holes(entry/exit) in the critters we chase. How is bigger holes that let more blood out and have a greater chance of cutting more important stuff a bad thing?

 

[Sapcut]

why is there such an emphasis on small cutting diameter heads?

I think simply to increase your chances of getting thru the onside big bones should you hit one AND getting thru the offside shoulder/leg bones with angled shots on an exit to get two holes for more blood loss.

How is bigger holes that let more blood out and have a greater chance of cutting more important stuff a bad thing?

I personally don't think it is a bad thing at all IF you hit the softest tissue you can AND/OR you are propelling said wide broadhead with the weight and power of a bow to get thru any part of the animal. It all boils down to how bad you personally want it and how little you personally care about preparing before you hunt.

Every bow, arrow and broadhead is plenty good enough to penetrate any animal in NA..... until the second an animals body stops your arrow. Then you didn't have enough bow, arrow weight, arrow strength, narrow enough broadhead, etc.

 

[Beendare]

So in the context of the thread title, I would like to pose this question. If we are predominantly hunting north american critters and we know they are not, as a general rule, nearly as tough to put an arrow through as big african game, why is there such an emphasis on small cutting diameter heads? In my mind, the perfect hunting arrow is the delivery vehicle capable of more times than not putting the largest holes(entry/exit) in the critters we chase. How is bigger holes that let more blood out and have a greater chance of cutting more important stuff a bad thing?

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[Btaylor]

As in all archery related factors its a tradeoff.

Ive seen hundreds of animals die to arrows and BHs of different flavors, my takeaways;

1) Blood on the ground is more a function of shot location than the size of the BH. Simply put, high shots bleed less than low shots no matter cutting diameter. I’ve seen plenty of high shots with big mech heads that left very little blood. Add that when an animal is hit with a big innefficient bh design, they usually run like their tail is on fire. Contrast that with the very efficient coc heads, many times the animal doesn’t feel it and either stands there or walks off slowly Usually dying in sight.

2) A bigger BH always creates more resistance thus with big BHs you risk not getting a passthrough. Its a certainty that an animal runs further faster with the one hole head and the arrow dangling out of them.

3) IMO, blood on the ground is given a lot of emphasis by todays bowhunters. Sure you can kill them with blood loss but that will never beat catestrophic system failure. Ive heard of a few elk horror story 2,3,4 mile track jobs and lost them.

A pass through to the lungs creates a pressure failure- the lungs cannot inflate. How far can you go on 1/2 of a breath?

Cut a hole through the heart or the bundle of major arteries above and the heart stops quickly. We don’t need a huge hole for these system failures. A bigger cut might not get the penetration needed to reach these critical systems.

Then again, shoot a super heavy arrow like Sapcuts and you can use one of these big ass BHs because you have the arrow weight behind it.

Its all about your priorities and as this thread has illustrated, there is no one size fits all !

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As it relates to blood on the ground, my experience has been different than your I suppose. Considering only deer shot through the lungs, center line or below and no bone other than ribs contacted, bigger 3 blades have resulted in much better blood trails with no discernable difference in recovery distance. Yes they left at a higher speed but were down in basically the same distance. 75-100 yards. The overwhelming majority of my hunting has been in heavy cover(cut overs) where deer or hogs can get out of sight very quickly and the more blood loss the better. That is why I have always leaned more towards a big 3 blade(mechanicals for compound and something like old snuffers). They knock big holes that let more blood out, again in my experience. Current setup is a 570 grain arrow from a 56.5# recurve and I have not had any issues consistently making 2 holes in stuff with such a setup. Like you said it is all about choices but I think experience plays a huge roll as well. As Sap mentioned, you need to have enough bow and arrow to drive the head. For that reason specifically, I think encouraging new or newer bowhunters towards a setup more in line with Ashby's teaching makes a lot of sense but as a hunter gains kill experience, they shouldnt be afraid to experiment some to in order to find the optimum setup for themselves and how, where and what they hunt.

 

[Sapcut]

I totally agree with Beendare regarding shot location and blood loss. If I had to put my finger on one thing to best predict maximum blood loss, I would surely say shot location. I have hit high lungs with a three blade and get very little blood. Hit low lungs with narrow two blade single bevel and get pa lenty of blood. Exit low and get crazy blood. I think the absolute best blood loss shot is slicing up the plumbing in front of the heart.

That is why I have always leaned more towards a big 3 blade(mechanicals for compound and something like old snuffers).

Sometimes I deer and pig hunt with a Big Jim three blade. It is exactly the size of a Snuffer but non vented. Unfortunately Big Jim does not sell them any longer. It is a fantastic three blade head. I have broken leg/shoulder bones with those heads on several occasions.

In the pics below, I was attempting to shoot straight down thru the shoulder blades of this doe. The Big Jim broadhead glanced off of the sapling and stuck her right in the melon. Wasn’t her best day but I was provided wild nutrition.

 

[Btaylor]

I totally agree with Beendare regarding shot location and blood loss. If I had to put my finger on one thing to best predict maximum blood loss, I would surely say shot location. I have hit high lungs with a three blade and get very little blood. Hit low lungs with narrow two blade single bevel and get pa lenty of blood. Exit low and get crazy blood. I think the absolute best blood loss shot is slicing up the plumbing in front of the heart.



Sometimes I deer and pig hunt with a Big Jim three blade. It is exactly the size of a Snuffer but non vented. Unfortunately Big Jim does not sell them any longer. It is a fantastic three blade head. I have broken leg/shoulder bones with those heads on several occasions.

In the pics below, I was attempting to shoot straight down thru the shoulder blades of this doe. The Big Jim broadhead glanced off of the sapling and stuck her right in the melon. Wasn’t her best day but I was provided wild nutrition.


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Glad you posted that. It reminded me of my Dad's first deer back in the late 60's. He had a group of deer that came running through the woods and stopped right at his stand. Of the 6 only one was partially clear, a little doe stopped with her head and neck sticking out from behind a tree. Dad was still competing at the time and so he shot her in the ear hole with a zwickey delta at about 15 yards. Lights out.

 

[Beendare]

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[bowhuntercoop]

I tend to agree with the 2 blade statement. Current set up is gt trad classic 500 spine cut 27.5 carbon to carbon. Standard 74 grain insert and 100 grain stingers or vpa 2 blade. Finished arrow weight is around 475 grains. I shoot a stalker wolverine fxt at 42-44lbs at my 26 inch draw length and its plenty.

Out of all the critters I've killed with a bow a 2 blade has always produced the best penetration even with lighter arrow set ups. I've used compounds from 50-80lbs since my draw length is so short and always seem to go back to a 2 blade.

 

[Mudd Foot]

I think this set-up is around 23 grains per inch.


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[bowhuntercoop]

I think this set-up is around 23 grains per inch.


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What’s your draw length? That’s a straight missle!

 

[Mudd Foot]

@29”.


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[Beendare]

Mudd, are you drawing that long sleeve up on your shelf or rest?

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[Mudd Foot]

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[bowhuntercoop]

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Makes sense, I was wondering if the footers hit the shelf. I used the Elk River archery footers on the axis shafts with my compounds and had great results. You need em for a heavy build like yours.

 

[Mudd Foot]

Makes sense, I was wondering if the footers hit the shelf. I used the Elk River archery footers on the axis shafts with my compounds and had great results. You need em for a heavy build like yours.

If they do I’m not aware of it. That said I’m running clicker and am really focused on the process surrounding expansion. Honestly don’t know.


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[Beendare]

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