The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

[JGRaider]

What's obvious is you don't understand what faith means.

John 20:29
New International Version
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

 

[JGRaider]

No you fail to see that Bible verses are not the same as verifable scientific evidence that confirm gravity. If a Muslim cited verses from the Quran to you to prove Allah existed I doubt you a nonbeliever of Islam would accept that faith based belief as proof.

The Bible verses you quoted can mean many things to many people unlike the scientific proof for gravity. That does not mean the persons who do not accept your interpretation are wrong and willfully blind.

This post is the very definition of willfully blind, as Romans 1:20 points out.
New International Version
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

 

[Yoder]

That is not the purpose of the 10 commandments

I would not encourage people to believe they are incapable of staying off of sin

We are in fact capable if we humbly let the Lord into their lives to strengthen their wills against temptation

Yes we fall short if we try to do it all ourselves, and if we don't fill our hearts as we should. But to say we could NEVER live up to the standard... that's not true

We can never live up to the standard. Everyone sins, probably every day, multiple times a day. It's not just actions, but thoughts. Nobody can control their thoughts all the time. If we were capable of this, we wouldn't have needed Jesus. It's not just the Holy Spirit; God has allowed Satan to rule here for a time. Satan also influences our thoughts. I do think that we are responsible, and we should always try to do our best. Some people misunderstand this as trying to earn our salvation. I know that's not possible. The best example I have with this is my drinking. I struggled with alcohol my entire life. I know that God eased my burden with this and made it something I can manage. I still have the free will to drink. I still have temptations, but I can handle them with God's help. I still have to do my part. I can't just ask God in a prayer "Can I drink today", not hear an answer, start drinking and say it's Gods will. I think it's the Holy Spirit influencing our free will to do what's right. We can still ignore it, which means I am accountable.

 

[Beagle1]

im going to share with you what was shared with me, Beagle is not here for any sort of conversation like he describes. Someone had posted that he is a major contributor to this thread and has yet to nail down a stance on what he is doing. you're going to end up in frustration if you havent already.

I stop trying with him and this thread has been miles more productive me. he only accepts his own reality and will dispute anything just for the sake of dispute.

I have addressed this question many times before here and in private. I’m engaging because I care about the questions being raised and think belief or non-belief are important. And I don’t question a believer’s assertions to be combative, but because truth (if we’re after it) should be able to withstand scrutiny.

I don’t claim to have all the answers, and I’ve been honest about where I stand. It’s been my experience in life that you don’t learn much from just listening to people that continually tell you what you want to hear.

If that frustrates some, I get it. But as I said before if I am not welcome to post in this thread just say it.

 

[Beagle1]

Yes I a

This post is the very definition of willfully blind, as Romans 1:20 points out.
New International Version
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Yes I am blind that I cannot “clearly” see “invisible qualities”.

Would similar verses from the Quran convince you that they are proof of Allah?

 

[go_deep]

As he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct.
1 Peter 1:15

 

[dylanvb]

You keep bringing up the Quran and that book and religion holds no weight in this conversation.

“For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22‬:‭18‬-‭19‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[Shortschaf]

We can never live up to the standard. Everyone sins, probably every day, multiple times a day. It's not just actions, but thoughts. Nobody can control their thoughts all the time. If we were capable of this, we wouldn't have needed Jesus. It's not just the Holy Spirit; God has allowed Satan to rule here for a time. Satan also influences our thoughts. I do think that we are responsible, and we should always try to do our best. Some people misunderstand this as trying to earn our salvation. I know that's not possible. The best example I have with this is my drinking. I struggled with alcohol my entire life. I know that God eased my burden with this and made it something I can manage. I still have the free will to drink. I still have temptations, but I can handle them with God's help. I still have to do my part. I can't just ask God in a prayer "Can I drink today", not hear an answer, start drinking and say it's Gods will. I think it's the Holy Spirit influencing our free will to do what's right. We can still ignore it, which means I am accountable.

A fleeting thought that enters your head and immediately rejected is not a sin, it is a temptation.

I am not saying we can go our entire lives, but we can most certainly go a day or several without sinning. Your use of the word "never" is overgeneralized.

I say this not to nitpick but to raise awareness that the standard is not impossible to achieve. Try to be a better man or women than we were yesterday, and before we know it we are keeping temptation at bay all day long.

 

[CRJR45]

Whenever I debate any believer , which is often , the discussion always ends with the believer saying , after all their points were proven false -"Well you just have to have faith !"
You guys trying to use the bible to prove god is real really don't get it . Take the bible out of the debate , and what proof is there of a god ?
It's a simple test , without the bible , no one would believe in a god .
Now , don't think I'm being mean or trying to belittle anybody . I'm just trying to get you guys to see the facts .
Arguing over the meaning of something written 1750 years ago is pointless , it just comes down to how you choose to interpret it .
If you want to believe thats fine , but don't get all butthurt when someone doubts you .



Also , who's really trolling this thread ?

 

[dylanvb]

Whenever I debate any believer , which is often , the discussion always ends with the believer saying , after all their points were proven false -"Well you just have to have faith !"
You guys trying to use the bible to prove god is real really don't get it . Take the bible out of the debate , and what proof is there of a god ?
It's a simple test , without the bible , no one would believe in a god .
Now , don't think I'm being mean or trying to belittle anybody . I'm just trying to get you guys to see the facts .
Arguing over the meaning of something written 1750 years ago is pointless , it just comes down to how you choose to interpret it .
If you want to believe thats fine , but don't get all butthurt when someone doubts you .



Also , who's really trolling this thread ?

 

[dylanvb]

Yes the fact is this is constantly debated on all levels of academia, why is that?

 

[Beagle1]

The Bible doesn't say everyone who doesn't believe in Jesus goes to hell. If that were true, everyone on Earth before Jesus was born, would be going to hell. I also know God is just. A just God couldn't condemn people who have never heard of Jesus. Everyone knows right from wrong. The Bible says “But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.” I personally think that evidence of a creator is pretty obvious in nature. So, if you seek the creator, and live life as if God exists, I think you will be judged as a believer. It's the denial of the existence God or idol worship that's going to be a problem. I think there is scripture that backs the idea that the more you understand, the more you will be held accountable. "And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, they will receive a light beating”. So those who know and understand the Gospel will be held to a much higher standard than someone living in the Amazon who has never heard of Jesus.

Your view of salvation dovetails with many other Christian denominations.

But there is also an exclusivist theology common in conservative evangelical and fundamentalist churches that teaches your view is wrong. It requires explicit belief in Jesus as Lord and Savior for salvation. So the Amazon dwellers and followers of other religions no matter how devout or moral are lost unless they convert.

Under this theology Gandhi or the Dalai Lama are damned but a violent criminal who repents on death row and confesses Jesus is saved.

Which Christian theology is right determines the salvation of billions of people.

 

[dylanvb]

A much longer discussion

 

[CRJR45]

A much longer discussion

That is not proof , just one mans opinion , much like yours . I see you have no idea what the word proof means .

 

[Texasbuckeye]

No christian denomination determines who goes to heaven or hell. thats exactly the point we have been trying to tell you for many posts. Get that out of your head.

God determines. No one else. We might all have opinions, but any person on earth now (at one point there was a real person who could say it with authority) saying they know who is going to heaven or hell is simply a pharisee in the flesh.

 

[IdahoElk]

This thread reminds me why I don't talk politics or religion in mixed crowds, never ends well.

 

[dylanvb]

That is not proof , just one mans opinion , much like yours . I see you have no idea what the word proof means .

Where’s your proof? Prove to me God isn’t real please

 

[dylanvb]

you responded in 4 minutes and goes to show you didn’t even bother with watching the video.

 

[Beagle1]

The f

Yes the fact is this is constantly debated on all levels of academia, why is that?

The fact that it still is should be a clue.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

This thread reminds me why I don't talk politics or religion in mixed crowds, never ends well.

This thread was started as a christian thread, there was no question posed or challenge offered. the mixed crowd found it and started challenging christians. The funny thing is the people challenging the beliefs of christians have admitted they are simply here to challenge christians, despite this being a thread started by christians for christians. Sort of like a anti-hunter coming to a hunting thread to stir up drama. You have to ask yourself "why"?

The fact the responses have been so civil is a testament to the people posting in this forum. There are a lot of good people in this forum. Unfortunately, just being good is not a path to anything other than self righteousness.