The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

[Beagle1]

@Beagle1 you've been afforded the opportunity to know and hear about the salvation our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ has offered you. What your asking is a great deflective theological question, that I answered previously already, but the better question is what will you do with the message you've been blessed with hearing?

Christ's peace be with you brother.

No deflection. I’ve explained before why I feel as I do and it’s clear that your truth is different from numerous other Christian positions on this.

Peace is always a good thing. Peace to you also.

 

[Beagle1]

Once again, it doesn't matter what anyone believes. All that matters is the Truth. You may not believe in gravity either. Crawl up on a 3 story building and jump off and see how that works out.

But the gravity analogy only works if God’s existence was as scientifically verifiable. If jumping off a roof proved God’s presence as clearly as gravity proves itself, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Belief in God is not like gravity, it requires faith because it isn’t self-evident.

 

[JGRaider]

But the gravity analogy only works if God’s existence was as scientifically verifiable. If jumping off a roof proved God’s presence as clearly as gravity proves itself, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Belief in God is not like gravity, it requires faith because it isn’t self-evident.

You must have intentionally missed this one that was previously posted......

Romans 1:20
New International Version
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Here's another pearl.......
Psalm 19:1-4
For the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. / Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge.

 

[Yoder]

Yes it’s fair to criticize Muhammad for marrying a young girl. The Bible also contains morally disturbing commands and actions. Does that affect your faith?

Also, if you believe Jesus is the only way and that sincere believers of other religions, including billions who follow God as best they understand, will suffer eternal damnation for following the wrong theology it brings up the big moral question. What kind of just God allows that?

The Bible doesn't say everyone who doesn't believe in Jesus goes to hell. If that were true, everyone on Earth before Jesus was born, would be going to hell. I also know God is just. A just God couldn't condemn people who have never heard of Jesus. Everyone knows right from wrong. The Bible says “But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.” I personally think that evidence of a creator is pretty obvious in nature. So, if you seek the creator, and live life as if God exists, I think you will be judged as a believer. It's the denial of the existence God or idol worship that's going to be a problem. I think there is scripture that backs the idea that the more you understand, the more you will be held accountable. "And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, they will receive a light beating”. So those who know and understand the Gospel will be held to a much higher standard than someone living in the Amazon who has never heard of Jesus.

 

[Yoder]

Yes but that is not the only Christian view. If you say, “God will judge them by what they knew,” then you’re actually conceding that faith in Christ might not be the only path to salvation which contradicts the claims many Christians make.

Thank you. If you kill a big buck , please leave me a bigger one.

This is only based on my understanding and the belief I've come to regarding this:

Christ is the only way. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all the same. To believe in the one true God who created everything is to believe in Christ at a basic level. To someone who has no idea about any of this, I'm thinking that will be good enough. They won't know about Jesus or the sacrifice he made for us all. They will only have a rudimentary understanding of God, and that's what they will be judged on. I think scripture backs up this idea.

 

[eddielasvegas]

The Bible doesn't say everyone who doesn't believe in Jesus goes to hell...

@Yoder What is your interpretation of the fate of non-believers during the 2nd coming of JC?

I ask as there seems to be no consenus amount Christians about this matter. Some think the NB will be destroyed, while others think the NB will be subject to god's judement.

Me thinks neither will end well, but I pray for the latter.


Eddie

 

[Yoder]

@Yoder What is your interpretation of the fate of non-believers during the 2nd coming of JC?

I ask as there seems to be no consenus amount Christians about this matter. Some think the NB will be destroyed, while others think the NB will be subject to god's judement.

Me thinks neither will end well, but I pray for the latter.


Eddie

I'm not God. I have no idea who will be saved or not. But I do know God loves us all and doesn't want any of us to end up in hell, but he gives us all free will. God won't make people have a relationship with him, so if they don't believe, they can't be with him. If people witness his return and still deny him, I think they are going to have a problem. If they repent and believe, even at the last second, I think they have a chance, just like the thief on the cross. I always thought God's judgment was going to be who's going to the fire and who isn't, then your place in heaven based on your life. This is just how I understand it.

 

[Hill Difficulty]

Just ask God for the gift to believe, and if you get it, you’ll understand.

No, that's not at all consistent with my post.

 

[eddielasvegas]

I'm not God. I have no idea who will be saved or not. But I do know God loves us all and doesn't want any of us to end up in hell, but he gives us all free will. God won't make people have a relationship with him, so if they don't believe, they can't be with him. If people witness his return and still deny him, I think they are going to have a problem. If they repent and believe, even at the last second, I think they have a chance, just like the thief on the cross. I always thought God's judgment was going to be who's going to the fire and who isn't, then your place in heaven based on your life. This is just how I understand it.

I understand, but the free will comment is a tad confusing since at least two of the 10 commandants (Deuteronomy 5:6-21) do not permit free will.

I do now understand you think that NB will spend an eternity in hell (my assumption based on your reference to the fire).

Thanks,

Eddie

 

[NVUplandHunter]

No, that's not at all consistent with my post.

im going to share with you what was shared with me, Beagle is not here for any sort of conversation like he describes. Someone had posted that he is a major contributor to this thread and has yet to nail down a stance on what he is doing. you're going to end up in frustration if you havent already.

I stop trying with him and this thread has been miles more productive me. he only accepts his own reality and will dispute anything just for the sake of dispute.

 

[NVUplandHunter]

I understand, but the free will comment is a tad confusing since at least two of the 10 commandants (Deuteronomy 5:6-21) do not permit free will.

I do now understand you think that NB will spend an eternity in hell (my assumption based on your reference to the fire).

Thanks,

Eddie

have you read Revelation? whats describe in there sounds like what is going to happen in the second coming and the way i read it, seems like theres lots of chances for people to change their stance.

and none of us are God and Yoder said. We dont get to make the final call, God does. If he decided to look into someone's heart that didnt believe and still decide to bring them to heaven for His own reasons, thats his decision.

I dont know how you can get that someone thinks all NB are going to hell by saying its up to God.

which commandments are not done in free will? pretty sure i can break all of them if i wanted to.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

We are not the judge of what happens to non-believers now or at the end. Thank God we arent. I would hate to be judged by some people. God has the final say. Perhaps we are all in Heaven and some just live a grander life, or maybe we just have some different adornments, and perhaps we all are in heaven and everything is exactly the same for everyone. There are parables in the Bible to support every version i mentioned above.

There is also Jesus’ own words telling us so e will not make it to heaven. So theres that. Thank God we are not the arbitrators of eternity. And thank God for Jesus redeeming sacrifice for us!!

 

[eddielasvegas]

have you read Revelation? whats describe in there sounds like what is going to happen in the second coming and the way i read it, seems like theres lots of chances for people to change their stance.

and none of us are God and Yoder said. We dont get to make the final call, God does. If he decided to look into someone's heart that didnt believe and still decide to bring them to heaven for His own reasons, thats his decision.

I dont know how you can get that someone thinks all NB are going to hell by saying its up to God.

which commandments are not done in free will? pretty sure i can break all of them if i wanted to.

Ah, the free will comment. Your reply made this clearer for me. You can break any of the 10 commandants as you say, but if you do, you will not be in the good grace of god. If you suffer eternal damnation for exercising your free will, then that's not free will. For example, worshipping Ra, or Brahma or Thor.

Not sure why you and @Yoder said you are not god. I did not ask if you were, but simply your opinion (or interpretation since there are many) of what will happen to NB during the 2nd coming.

I have not read revelation.


Eddie

 

[Texasbuckeye]

Eddie, the purpose of the 10 commandments and the whole rest of the jewish law is to make humans know we will never live up to the standard expected of us, WE AlLL FALL SHORT.

The purpose of the rest of the Bible is to show us humans there is a path, and we have free will to accept that path. We all sin, every one of us. But we all can choose to be cleansed of our sin debt by accepting the blood sacrifice (the original sacrifice God demands from the Jews) that Jesus provided on our behalf.

It is quite simple. Yet it is so eloquent.

 

[go_deep]

Be still and know that I am God!
Psalms 46:11

 

[Hill Difficulty]

Without God, man does not have the ability to do any of the following:

• fear god (God gives)
• Gospel calling (Holy Spirit)
• call to repentance (Jesus calls sinners to repent and be saved)
• saving faith (a gift, Jesus gives)
• spiritual baptism/filling with the Spirit (Jesus baptizes)
• the illumination of scripture (Holy Spirit)

In post #872 I made an attempt to help unbelievers (and Brothers) understand that man cannot will himself to saving faith. Everything is God's doing! God pursues us, we surrender. In my case, God swept through my life with a wrecking ball before I stopped running and gave it all over to Him.

Was going to expand on the 'free will' topic a bit before I stumbled into this short video by Chadd Wright. 7 total minutes and very well done!

Am encouraging everyone to watch this.
Man's Ability To Choose

 

[Texasbuckeye]

I know some denominations are more keen on the idea of a special elect group that are “predetermined” to be in eternity and some folks are not elected and therefore will spend eternity in hell, but if that is the case, then all God did was create a bunch of programmed robots who have no choice but to believe and worship God in heaven…he already has that with the angels and the heavenly beings that surround Him all he time.

The idea of predeterminism vs free will is best summed up by this: we are all elect, but we all get to choose whether we will follow the way.

The Bible is very clear that Jesus speaks of Hell as a real place that some people will go to, and He speaks very clearly of heaven which some people will go to. To say who goes where and that we “know” the answer is at best a foolhardy attempt to try and become gods ourselves. we are not God; He is the judge, we are not. Jesus speaks of a way to spend eternity in heaven. I believe that is the proper way, but i have learned enough in life to know two things: there is a God and I am not Him. Therefore, i will leave the judgement to Him and Him alone. I deal woth myself only, and try very hard not to judge anyone else from an eternity standpoint.

We have to remember, God is many things, but He is love greater than we humans can comprehend. His omnipotence, His onnipresence, His everlasting love are so profound, we just have no idea. The humanly job we do as parents i believe gives us a foreshadowing of these things, but it pales in comparison.

To say we have no choice is to me just silly. But to say the choice is all because of anything we did (including choosing to follow the way) is also just silly. The understanding comes from the Holy Spirit. The idea of whether the Holy Spirit is a result of the choice or whether the Holy Spirit facilitates the choice is a discussion way above my paygrade. I know this is a very denominational belief system i am going toward, and i do not know the answer, but i do believe no one comes to understand the Father except through the Holy Spirit, and without the Holy Spirit people see the Father with no understanding.

Dont ask me if receiving the Holy Spirit prior to receiving salvation means there is a.special elect group, or whether the Holy Spirit simply prods someone’s heart to learn more or seek the Lord…these mysteries are not going to be answered in this world. And perhaps it works differently for each person and that is why there are denominational differences with regard to these questions.

The main criticism i have with the video posted above is that unlike the author of the video, i do beliece God/Jesus would have done what they did EVEN IF it resulted in no one choosing to follow. Their love for us humans is too deep not to offer a way to be with them, even if we were all too stupid to follow it. Of course, knowing God is omnipotent and time has no bearing on Him, He knew the effort was worth the price Jesus paid.

Sorry this was long and rambly

 

[Yoder]

Ah, the free will comment. Your reply made this clearer for me. You can break any of the 10 commandants as you say, but if you do, you will not be in the good grace of god. If you suffer eternal damnation for exercising your free will, then that's not free will. For example, worshipping Ra, or Brahma or Thor.

Not sure why you and @Yoder said you are not god. I did not ask if you were, but simply your opinion (or interpretation since there are many) of what will happen to NB during the 2nd coming.

I have not read revelation.


Eddie

The only reason I started with "I'm not God" was to emphasize the fact that nobody knows who will be saved. Only God knows, and I never want to speak for God, only offer my own opinion.

I believe in free will. Free will is how Adam and Eve fell from grace. They chose to disobey God and sin. Sin is what separates us from God. This is why the sacrifice Jesus made for us was necessary. Someone had to pay the price for our sins so we can be with God. This is why nobody enters Heaven except through Christ. If God controls every aspect of our lives, we are just robots. Free will is what allows us to love. God wants us to love him above all other things. I don't believe that's possible without free will.

 

[Shortschaf]

Eddie, the purpose of the 10 commandments and the whole rest of the jewish law is to make humans know we will never live up to the standard expected of us, WE AlLL FALL SHORT.

That is not the purpose of the 10 commandments

I would not encourage people to believe they are incapable of staying off of sin

We are in fact capable if we humbly let the Lord into their lives to strengthen their wills against temptation

Yes we fall short if we try to do it all ourselves, and if we don't fill our hearts as we should. But to say we could NEVER live up to the standard... that's not true

 

[Beagle1]

Once again, it doesn't matter what anyone believes. All that matters is the Truth. You may not believe in gravity either. Crawl up on a 3 story building and jump off and see how that works

You must have intentionally missed this one that was previously posted......

Romans 1:20
New International Version
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Here's another pearl.......
Psalm 19:1-4
For the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. / Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge.

No you fail to see that Bible verses are not the same as verifable scientific evidence that confirm gravity. If a Muslim cited verses from the Quran to you to prove Allah existed I doubt you a nonbeliever of Islam would accept that faith based belief as proof.

The Bible verses you quoted can mean many things to many people unlike the scientific proof for gravity. That does not mean the persons who do not accept your interpretation are wrong and willfully blind.