The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

[Bugger]

I saw a ghost last night is easy, have 40+ people witness the same ghost that then changes their life so profoundly they are willing to walk into the colliseum to be killed. Not slaves, but people killed for their belief.

Would you die for your ghost? You probably wouldn’t even make a single change to your life for your ghost.

I am not saying this proves anything, but it is telling that enough early christians were killed for their belief in the resurrection. That lind of dedication takes some balls. Do you have that dedication to anything? Maybe your family, maybe some friends…why? Because you have known them, you have seen them.

Thats the early christians. They were willing to change their lives and die for something they saw, something they knew. To tale that fact out of context is a very disingenuous argument and you know it.

Cults and other religions do this all the time.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

Cults and other religions do this all the time.

And cults rise up and die all the time never to be heard from again.

Christianity, if a cult, has to be the longest cult in existence after its leader was killed.

I was bringing those concepts up because the early church continued and thrived despite the threat of death (and actual amass killings), and still is thriving today in areas of the world that it has no right to thrive except for the power of the Spirit.

My point was to take the historical context of early christianity out and say there is no historical record to verify things like the bible and christianity is just a pll thesilly arguments to make. Doesnt mean people wont make the argument, but it is disingenuous and they know it as well.

 

[go_deep]

Christianity’s endurance is impressive, but longevity doesn’t prove divine truth. Many ancient religions like Judaism, Hinduism, and Buddhism also predate it and continue to thrive. The claim that the Bible hasn’t changed is not accurate. We don’t have the originals, What we have are handwritten copies of copies made over centuries. Christianity’s message has evolved significantly, with major early disputes and over 45,000 denominations today. Religions can persist for centuries not because they’re objectively true, but because they subjectively connect to the believer. So the real question isn’t how long Christianity has lasted, but whether its claims especially about the supernatural hold up under objective analysis.

Still the one OG Catholic church that Jesus said he would build his church on stands today.
I would say recorded events like Fatima are great examples of modern day recorded miracles. Pictures, thousands of witness, some of those people lived into the 2000's, and that's just one of many well recorded miraculous events of recent history.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

Those that want to have eyes to see will see, and those who wish to be blinded will be blinded.

There is very little that will change a hard heart to become soft except the Holy Spirit of God.

 

[NVUplandHunter]

Josephus (c. 37–100 AD) – A Jewish historian. In Antiquities of the Jews, he references Jesus as a wise man who was crucified under Pilate and had followers. A longer passage includes mention of the resurrection but is widely considered altered by later Christian editors.


Tacitus (c. 56–120 AD) – A Roman historian who wrote in Annals that "Christus... suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius, at the hands of... Pontius Pilate." He confirms the execution of Jesus and the existence of Christians in Rome.


Pliny the Younger (c. 61–113 AD) – A Roman governor who wrote to Emperor Trajan about early Christians worshipping Christ “as to a god.” He documents Christian practice and devotion early in the second century.


Suetonius (c. 69–122 AD) – A Roman historian who mentions disturbances in Rome caused by “Chrestus,” likely a reference to Christ.


They show Jesus was a historical figure they don’t prove the resurrection.

honest question, would take any one of the deaths the Apostles did in their faith if Jesus really hadnt risen from the dead? One was literally sawn in half.. like all he had to do is say he was lying and it wasnt real if it really wasnt.

I say this because even though these dont say exactly what you are wanting to see, can the faith of others not be a sign? being boiled alive, sawn in half, pulled limb from limb by horses.. i mean some really horrible deaths all that could have been prevented by saying Jesus wasnt who he said he was, but they didnt. To me, that means what they saw was real and they truly believed it. Why shouldnt I? Jesus says Blessed are those who have seen and believed but even more blessed are those who havent seen and still believe.

 

[Beagle1]

I saw a ghost last night is easy, have 40+ people witness the same ghost that then changes their life so profoundly they are willing to walk into the colliseum to be killed. Not slaves, but people killed for their belief.

Would you die for your ghost? You probably wouldn’t even make a single change to your life for your ghost.

I am not saying this proves anything, but it is telling that enough early christians were killed for their belief in the resurrection. That lind of dedication takes some balls. Do you have that dedication to anything? Maybe your family, maybe some friends…why? Because you have known them, you have seen them.

Thats the early christians. They were willing to change their lives and die for something they saw, something they knew. To tale that fact out of context is a very disingenuous argument and you know it.

The willingness of early Christians to suffer and die for their beliefs is powerful, but it doesn’t prove the resurrection happened. People in many religion Islam, Mormonism, even Jonestown, have died for what they believed they saw or were told. Sincerity doesn't equal truth. My ghost story was meant to illustrate what you saw, just because I say I saw something, and feel deeply about it, doesn’t make it is true to anyone else. You rightly wouldn’t accept my ghost claim without serious evidence.
So why should I accept the resurrection based on secondhand, ancient reports and martyrdoms that also occur in other religions and that I assume would not be accepted by you.

As to Christianity’s popularity let’s keep it in perspective. Two thirds of the world population doesn’t believe in it. That’s billions of people. I don’t think you would argue that means it is not true.

 

[Beagle1]

honest question, would take any one of the deaths the Apostles did in their faith if Jesus really hadnt risen from the dead? One was literally sawn in half.. like all he had to do is say he was lying and it wasnt real if it really wasnt.

I say this because even though these dont say exactly what you are wanting to see, can the faith of others not be a sign? being boiled alive, sawn in half, pulled limb from limb by horses.. i mean some really horrible deaths all that could have been prevented by saying Jesus wasnt who he said he was, but they didnt. To me, that means what they saw was real and they truly believed it. Why shouldnt I? Jesus says Blessed are those who have seen and believed but even more blessed are those who havent seen and still believe.

You can believe what you want as can believers in other religions who interpret signs of their religion the same as you do.

 

[NVUplandHunter]

You can believe what you want as can believers in other religions who interpret signs of their religion the same as you do.

yeah no argument there. God gives free will and we are allowed to use that. people who dont believe are fully allowed to do that too. No skin off my back.

you didnt address my question though about people dying for what they saw. not trying to argue here but i think that is evidence. the testimony of others and their literal willingness to endure an awful death for what they saw and knew to be true has to mean something.

im not trying to convert you. just laying out additional facts and views based on your reply.

 

[Shortschaf]

yeah no argument there. God gives free will and we are allowed to use that. people who dont believe are fully allowed to do that too. No skin off my back.

you didnt address my question though about people dying for what they saw. not trying to argue here but i think that is evidence. the testimony of others and their literal willingness to endure an awful death for what they saw and knew to be true has to mean something.

im not trying to convert you. just laying out additional facts and views based on your reply.

Out of Beagle's last 81 posts, 71 have been on this thread.
There have been 69 replies to him in this thread

140 comments is over 20% of the entire thread so far (a massive thread), and yet his goal in this conversation remains a mystery.

I would highly recommend the ignore button


With the advanced search function I was able to count all of this in about 5 minutes. And my goal with sharing this information is to encourage productive conversation

 

[NVUplandHunter]

Out of Beagle's last 81 posts, 71 have been on this thread.
There have been 69 replies to him in this thread

140 comments is over 20% of the entire thread so far (a massive thread), and yet his goal in this conversation remains a mystery.

I would highly recommend the ignore button


With the advanced search function I was able to count all of this in about 5 minutes. And my goal with sharing this information is to encourage productive conversation

Noted! i have been away from the forum for a few and havent really caught back up so thank you for that.

 

[go_deep]

Out of Beagle's last 81 posts, 71 have been on this thread.
There have been 69 replies to him in this thread

140 comments is over 20% of the entire thread so far (a massive thread), and yet his goal in this conversation remains a mystery.

I would highly recommend the ignore button


With the advanced search function I was able to count all of this in about 5 minutes. And my goal with sharing this information is to encourage productive conversation

Maybe someone can change your WKR status to Colombo, LOL

 

[Bugger]

you didnt address my question though about people dying for what they saw. not trying to argue here but i think that is evidence. the testimony of others and their literal willingness to endure an awful death for what they saw and knew to be true has to mean something.

Honestly, no. Again, this happens all the time in religion and politics. Humans are easily manipulated and a lot of other cultures rank preservation of life much lower than us, or simply encourage martyrdom. Monks burn themselves, Japanese flew their planes into ships for their country, lots of religions have self-mutilation rituals, terrorists blow themselves up for Islam, Vikings endured the blood eagle to redeem their honor for Valhalla, the list goes on and on. Seriously not trying to be a d!** here, just providing a counterpoint. There’s nothing that’s been said here in this thread that I haven’t stood on both sides of while growing up.

There really is no convincing anyone either direction. You either believe in logic or magic.

 

[NVUplandHunter]

Honestly, no. Again, this happens all the time in religion and politics. Humans are easily manipulated and a lot of other cultures rank preservation of life much lower than us, or simply encourage martyrdom. Monks burn themselves, Japanese flew their planes into ships for their country, lots of religions have self-mutilation rituals, terrorists blow themselves up for Islam, Vikings endured the blood eagle to redeem their honor for Valhalla, the list goes on and on. Seriously not trying to be a d!** here, just providing a counterpoint. There’s nothing that’s been said here in this thread that I haven’t stood on both sides of while growing up.

There really is no convincing anyone either direction. You either believe in logic or magic.

the main difference is the people you refer to are followers of a religion. no different than if i were to be a martyr today for not reversing my stance on my faith. something i havent seen to be true but have a faith that it is. and you are not wrong is that at all. lots of different religions practice this and have.

the people i refer to are founders of the religion. people that refused to say what they saw wasnt real. These are first hand witnesses. additionally, the other religions you site dont claim to have walked with their God on earth like the Apostles did with Jesus. im not talking about modern day people, im taking the 12 that spent time with him and witnessed the resurrection.

anyhow, you are right in that theres no convincing anyone who doesnt have an open heart to hear it or an open mind on the subject to leave room for it. people will believe or they wont. but for those who are on the fence and need something to tip them over it, im not going to be quite. My faith isnt something im ashamed of or hide. So while my comments might not help you or others who are set, it might help some looking.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

There really is no convincing anyone either direction. You either believe in logic or magic.

I believe in a book thousands of years in the making that has been shown to be accurate despite intense scrutiny, which talks of the origins of the universe and why we are here, gives a path to enlightenment and a way to live a life for others in love.

Your way says we are all here because at some point everything in the universe was in a single point in space, how this is possible no one can even fathom a guess, and it then all of the sudden blew up, cause unknown, and that explosion and the resultant reactions that happened created life as we know it with little to no understanding of how any of it actually happened other than to say “well, we are here so we must give our best guess”

Now you tell me who believes in magic and logic

 

[eddielasvegas]

I don’t know you from Adam. My question was 100% asked in good faith. It would appear to me you’re looking for a fight, of which I’m not going to oblige you.

Well, one of these days maybe our paths will cross and you'll soon learn in every scenario, the last thing I want is a fight. I'm way too much of a wuss.

On the chance our paths cross, I'll buy you dinner and we can solve the world's problems and I have a pretty good idea of what the first topic will be.


Eddie

 

[Jason Snyder]

On the chance our paths cross, I'll buy you dinner and we can solve the world's problems and I have a pretty good idea of what the first topic will be.

You buy dinner, I’ll buy the drinks. I 100% apologize if I took your post wrong.

 

[Bugger]

I believe in a book thousands of years in the making that has been shown to be accurate despite intense scrutiny, which talks of the origins of the universe and why we are here, gives a path to enlightenment and a way to live a life for others in love.

Your way says we are all here because at some point everything in the universe was in a single point in space, how this is possible no one can even fathom a guess, and it then all of the sudden blew up, cause unknown, and that explosion and the resultant reactions that happened created life as we know it with little to no understanding of how any of it actually happened other than to say “well, we are here so we must give our best guess”

Now you tell me who believes in magic and logic

Logic: reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.

Magic: the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.

That comment was not intended to be taken offensively.

Nearly all of the stories of the Bible have a logical conclusion that collides with a magical explanation. A whale does not have the available oxygen in its stomach to sustain a human for 3 days, but if you have faith in a god that can do anything then he could have made it happen. No number of people can produce a volume or pitch capable of knocking down strong city walls, but if god made it happen then there ya go. Just a couple of examples.
As far as the origin of the universe, shoot man, I know as much as the next non-scientist that grew up reading national geographic magazines and looking into scientific articles as they come out with new data. I know that we are the product of incredibly special events that had to take place over billions of years, but that does not lead me to dedicate my entire life to serve one of thousands of deities created by other humans from ancient times because we haven’t witnessed the process in our minuscule timeline of existence yet.
I have no problem with religion as long as it’s not shoved down my throat. My only point in this is that if people are adamant that I’ll spend eternity in a blowtorch for not believing what they do, I can certainly defend why I think I won’t.

 

[Beagle1]

Out of Beagle's last 81 posts, 71 have been on this thread.
There have been 69 replies to him in this thread

140 comments is over 20% of the entire thread so far (a massive thread), and yet his goal in this conversation remains a mystery.

I would highly recommend the ignore button


With the advanced search function I was able to count all of this in about 5 minutes. And my goal with sharing this information is to encourage productive conversation

No goal. Interesting topic. If by productive conversation you mean posts which
confirm your beliefs yeah it’s best to put me on ignore. My sense is many of the posters here are not use to having the evidence for their beliefs challenged and find it unsettling

And if you go back through my posts you will find most of them were in response to believers’ posts and did not take any cheap shots.

 

[Beagle1]

Maybe someone can change your WKR status to Colombo, LOL

Don’t worry if this thread lasts until deer season I will mostly magically disappear then.

It’s become a bit of a Groundhog Day thread anyways. It basically can be boiled down into this.

Believer’s - faith and the Bible

Nonbeliever - evidence and reason

 

[Shortschaf]

Maybe someone can change your WKR status to Colombo, LOL

I just wanted to get ahead of the inevitable comments calling me out for being obsessive ha. It took no time at all and I got tired of the worthless back-and-forth