The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

Not a pro but aren’t most of these events part of the basis for all Abrahamic religions? So it’s not just Christians who take it literally?

I have no idea what Judaism and Islam teach on the topic of the flood. But I assure you not all (and maybe most?) Christians take it as a worldwide flood. Especially don't let that topic distract you from finding Christ

All Abrahamic religions acknowledge Noah and a flood.
Wikipedia on Islam says the "local flood vs world flood" topic is disputed
Wikipedia on Judaism says it is traditionally taught to be global
 
"I am an agnostic atheist who stands mostly on the null hypothesis and the burden of proof meaning that someone making an assertion bears the burden to demonstrate the truth of that assertion."

Does not the burden fall upon you then to definitively without a doubt prove that God doesn't not exist based on your own statement?
What physical proof can you provide that shows me the God of the universe, isn't real?
Not options or feels.
Who is making the knowledge claim? You or me?

It is impossible to "prove" a negative. The burden of proof rests on the person making the knowledge claim, not on the person rejecting it.
 
OK, I have a little more time now to answer the question posed by you, so I will take a stab and see if I can't answer some stuff for you.

Take away faith and use only truth. There are really only two truths we can go by in any discussion about God. Here they are: you are on the earth, and you are not God. As an atheist I think you can agree to those two truths.

Lets break those apart. You are here (on Earth). How did you get here. Simple truth is from your parents. But that can continue all the way back to the beginning of things, ultimately back to the "big bang theory"...all things had a beginning, and the theory is all matter in the universe started a singularity that snapped and is constantly expanding and that is how we are all here. Now to get here, there had to be multiple versions of life forms, RNA turned into DNA and all kinds of very complex mutations with complex proteins all driven by DNA changes (think changes that beget changes). The biochemistry and biological changes that had to happen to get you where you are today are so vastly complex and ,despite the best of science and our understanding, we still have no real idea how it all happened from beginning of life to the end organs and differentiation we have today.

OK second, you are not God. I think that is a pretty self explanatory truth. If any of us were God, I think it would also be self explanatory as well. I think it is safe to say none of us have seen God in the flesh.

So where does that get us? You are here, and you are not God. Back to the beginning.

In the end, we all have a belief system. You, a self described atheist have a belief system that says at some moment all the matter of the universe was "somewhere" and it magically exploded and that is why we are here today. If you have a different theory on this, please let me know, I am making an assumption on the theory of why you are here. based upon many conversations with atheists and scientists about this very topic. The leaps of belief (we can call it "faith" if you want or keep it at belief, but the semantics are exactly the same) you take to get where you are today are enormous. What collected all the matter of the universe all in the same space? What caused the snap and sudden expansion? How did the primordial soup create life? How did life go from unicellular to multicellular to differentiated organs, etc, etc, etc, etc.....the list of stretches beyond our current understanding are very large and despite knowing exactly how life exists, we still can not create life in a perfect modelled system with all the parts. There are so many aspects of your life that require so many leaps of faith, just to explain how you got here today, that to say "lets stick to truth" is an impossibility.

But on the other side, we have a historical record of a man, Jesus of nazareth, who claimed to be the Son of God incarnate. The prophets from thousands of years before Him gave writings (the old testament) which not only predicted His coming, how He would be born, but also how He would serve, how He would die, and then we have historical record of His resurrection and the first hand accounts of His living on earth after He was resurrected and seeing Him ascend to heaven. This is not faith, in as much as any historical record is a faith driven belief, this is historical record, well preserved and well documented over the two millennia since His death.

As part of that structure, the writings that were passed down in the Old Testament give a record of how the Earth was formed, who did the work, and more importantly the WHY. The whole Bible is about the why, with a little how, but mostly the why. Yes this structure requires some leaps of faith, the biggest one being that there is a God who cares about us individually and desires what's best for each of us. But the leaps of faith all tie into a singular WHY that is coherent, and all leads to the finality of Jesus and His purpose and mission on earth...to bring salvation of a fallen world and its people back to a loving all powerful God.

I won't get into the other religions of the world as they are not pertinent to the struggle between truth and faith. But the reality of it remains, in order to believe in the two truths each of us possess, there are stretches of faith in all directions. If we want to be really truthful, the stretches of faith are A LOT longer in your direction than in mine, but you can not realistically say that you don't hold on to some sort of faith structure even if you call it "science". I put science in parentheses there simply because the origination of the universe stuff is not real science, it is all theory with no real way to test, and most of it is the "best educated guess, since we are here, we got here somehow". I believe science can be done really well, but it can also be abused and cause a lot of doubt for people who struggle with truth. I am a physician, as such I have a science education and understand the scientific process a lot more than most. I also feel science will eventually be able to create life in a lab one day, but that will not exclude the possibility of God, since God gave the blueprint on how to create life. Kind of like the joke where scientists finally create life out of dirt, and God comes back saying, "make your own dirt and then come talk". Science and Chrisitanity do not have to be mutually exclusive. They actually fit together quite nicely and science gives the HOW and Christianity gives us the WHY behind the HOW.

I am sure there are parts of this that are not well written, so please feel free to ask questions or drive nails into my post. I am very willing to discuss.

So, I don't think you did what I asked you to do. I think you did something entirely different.

You didn't set aside your beliefs for a minute and read your words as I read them, you brought your best justifications for those beliefs out. I think it's interesting.
 
But, for anyone who really wants to know, and asks with a pure heart and a willingness to listen, God will reveal Himself in some manner. I fully 100% believe that.

If someone asks with a cold heart or with a heart of contempt, God will not reveal Himself. also, life has gotten so busy with clutter and noise, many people find it very difficult to hear God even when its a slap in the face. The US culture is not very spiritual at all.
This idea was already brought up in this thread and I commented on it then.

It is somewhat arrogant and presumptuous to say that because someone had a different experience than you and reached a different conclusion than you, that they didn't try hard enough. That they weren't doing it right.

Are you saying that, when I studied the Bible, I wasn't doing so with a pure heart? Have you read that thing? Takes some dedication. That, when I studied the RCIA (Rite of Catholic Initiation for Adults) I wasn't willing to listen to god?
 
So i say "God is real and here are examples X Y & Z of why i believe that to be true" how is it not on you to prove that what I'm saying is not true? Or is that the end of the road and because i have my examples and reasons, any non-believer has to take it because i gave the burden of truth?

If i'm going to make a definitive statement that God is real and i have that burden of proof, anyone who makes a definitive statement that God isnt real also needs the burden of proof of that.

How silly to think that only one side has to prove a point and the other can sit as if they are always correct. And historically, theres more documented and proven evidence God is real than there is that he isnt.

"God isnt real" yeah how do you know that? Prove it to me. you can say you dont need to, but i can also say i dont need to prove he is real.
I think you're a little off on how burden of proof works.

You make the assertion. You provide the evidence.

If I find that evidence lacking, I would point out where X, Y or Z falls short of fulfilling that burden. What tends to happen is that most social media arguments fall apart and descend into name-calling and 'strawmanning' which isn't productive.

I don't wish to speak for a whole community but skeptical, agnostic atheists such as myself very often change their minds when presented with better evidence or better arguments for things. I know that I do. I absolutely LOVE to be wrong about things because it gives me the chance to learn something new. The standard is high most times because I'm obsessive about learning things and I never stop reading, learning or thinking about the things I 'know' and why and how I know them to be true.

Broadly speaking, atheism isn't a knowledge claim, it is a rejection of one. We are not saying "there is no god" we are saying "OK, you guys have a job to do and we don't find your arguments to be very good"

For a deeper understanding about how this burden works, i find Russell's Teapot to be an interesting mental exercise.

 
I think you're a little off on how burden of proof works.

You make the assertion. You provide the evidence.

If I find that evidence lacking, I would point out where X, Y or Z falls short of fulfilling that burden. What tends to happen is that most social media arguments fall apart and descend into name-calling and 'strawmanning' which isn't productive.

I don't wish to speak for a whole community but skeptical, agnostic atheists such as myself very often change their minds when presented with better evidence or better arguments for things. I know that I do. I absolutely LOVE to be wrong about things because it gives me the chance to learn something new. The standard is high most times because I'm obsessive about learning things and I never stop reading, learning or thinking about the things I 'know' and why and how I know them to be true.

Broadly speaking, atheism isn't a knowledge claim, it is a rejection of one. We are not saying "there is no god" we are saying "OK, you guys have a job to do and we don't find your arguments to be very good"

For a deeper understanding about how this burden works, i find Russell's Teapot to be an interesting mental exercise.

What “proof” are you exactly looking for?

We have plenty of proof that the Bible and events in the Bible are real just do a google search. We have plenty of proof the Jesus Christ himself was a real person outside of the Bible as well as inside of the Bible.
 
Who is making the knowledge claim? You or me?

It is impossible to "prove" a negative. The burden of proof rests on the person making the knowledge claim, not on the person rejecting it.

When you said, "I am an agnostic atheist" are you basing your entire belief of being one with no knowledge? I reject Agnostic atheism.
Prove it to me.
 
What “proof” are you exactly looking for?

We have plenty of proof that the Bible and events in the Bible are real just do a google search. We have plenty of proof the Jesus Christ himself was a real person outside of the Bible as well as inside of the Bible.
Long comment incoming.

So, I first want to talk about "repeatability"

Lets start on the shooting range, you and I. We're shooting steel and you ring the 800 yard target. Now, for a little context, 800 yards is something almost unbelievable for me. I have access to a 300 yard range here in Western PA and tend to spend more time on my bow and my handguns anyway. Hearing that 800 yard steel (or seeing it, no clue) my first instinct is "do it again" because once is a fluke to me. Now, let's say you sit there and ring it 5 times consecutively. Now I can believe that you're able to make that hit rather than just 'accidentally' hitting it like would happen for me.

Are you with me on this? I think we all kind of intuitively understand the value of repeatability.

Now, to a level of proof or evidence that i think would rise to the occasion.

In Mark 16, Jesus himself says:

"And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

Now, please, leave the snakes alone and don't ingest any poisons, but I do think that there is a testable claim here.

"They will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well"


So, this is a testable claim, and one that Jesus himself lays out for those who believe in him and even seems to encourage the use of as a sign of those who believe in him.

Seeing this done, repeatably and consistently, not by the slow and incremental progress of science but my some "Mr. Miyagi" level laying of hands stuff would go a long way to convince me.
 
Long comment incoming.

So, I first want to talk about "repeatability"

Lets start on the shooting range, you and I. We're shooting steel and you ring the 800 yard target. Now, for a little context, 800 yards is something almost unbelievable for me. I have access to a 300 yard range here in Western PA and tend to spend more time on my bow and my handguns anyway. Hearing that 800 yard steel (or seeing it, no clue) my first instinct is "do it again" because once is a fluke to me. Now, let's say you sit there and ring it 5 times consecutively. Now I can believe that you're able to make that hit rather than just 'accidentally' hitting it like would happen for me.

Are you with me on this? I think we all kind of intuitively understand the value of repeatability.

Now, to a level of proof or evidence that i think would rise to the occasion.

In Mark 16, Jesus himself says:

"And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

Now, please, leave the snakes alone and don't ingest any poisons, but I do think that there is a testable claim here.

"They will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well"


So, this is a testable claim, and one that Jesus himself lays out for those who believe in him and even seems to encourage the use of as a sign of those who believe in him.

Seeing this done, repeatably and consistently, not by the slow and incremental progress of science but my some "Mr. Miyagi" level laying of hands stuff would go a long way to convince me.

While I appreciate what your saying, just think about this for awhile.

I've thought so many times, why did Jesus come when he did? Why not now, with technology everyone could see him in days. But then I realize, that is exactly why he didn't come now.
With AI, Photoshop, video editing, most would think it was a gimmick, a magic trick. He knew coming now would be less believable in the course of time due to technology.

So you say you'd believe if you seen that today, but honestly, deep down, would you?

You really want to sit down with someone that has the knowledge to answer the hard questions? Your not getting it on a one way communication form. PM me your number, I'll call you and talk to you and find out more details, and I will do the research myself to find a quality priest or pastor near you to sit-down and talk with you.

Peace
 
In Mark 16, Jesus himself says:

"And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons;

I’m doing my best to not cherry pick your respond, but it’s definitely worth noting that to this very day there are Catholic priests who have assignments as exorcist. They continually drive out demons in Jesus’s name. This shows repeatable time and time again.

Throughout the dialogue of this thread, you’ve also mentioned the burden of proof through science and how you are constantly researching information (which is great). Would you please consider researching Eucharistic Miracles? Consecrated hosts of our Lord and Savior that are bleeding. Under a microscope these are damaged heart tissue that’s still alive! Samples that have been taken to research facilities without prior knowledge and it cannot be scientifically explained. Some of these miracles have happened within the last 2 decades. These have been repeated and documented over the course of centuries.

He keeps banging steel at 800 yards, yet you keep doubting, saying it’s a fluke.

Jesus reveals himself to us all the time. It’s whether or not we acknowledge him.

Edited: Grammar and readability.
 
well Christianity didnt start in the united states.. and if it was a different beliefs and religions it wouldnt be God.. it would be whatever that religion calls for. your comment makes no sense.
Exactly my point, if you were born in say India and you were raised with Hinduism, would you not be full in on Hinduism and call all other religions or beliefs false?
 
OK, I have a little more time now to answer the question posed by you, so I will take a stab and see if I can't answer some stuff for you.

Take away faith and use only truth. There are really only two truths we can go by in any discussion about God. Here they are: you are on the earth, and you are not God. As an atheist I think you can agree to those two truths.

Lets break those apart. You are here (on Earth). How did you get here. Simple truth is from your parents. But that can continue all the way back to the beginning of things, ultimately back to the "big bang theory"...all things had a beginning, and the theory is all matter in the universe started a singularity that snapped and is constantly expanding and that is how we are all here. Now to get here, there had to be multiple versions of life forms, RNA turned into DNA and all kinds of very complex mutations with complex proteins all driven by DNA changes (think changes that beget changes). The biochemistry and biological changes that had to happen to get you where you are today are so vastly complex and ,despite the best of science and our understanding, we still have no real idea how it all happened from beginning of life to the end organs and differentiation we have today.

OK second, you are not God. I think that is a pretty self explanatory truth. If any of us were God, I think it would also be self explanatory as well. I think it is safe to say none of us have seen God in the flesh.

So where does that get us? You are here, and you are not God. Back to the beginning.

In the end, we all have a belief system. You, a self described atheist have a belief system that says at some moment all the matter of the universe was "somewhere" and it magically exploded and that is why we are here today. If you have a different theory on this, please let me know, I am making an assumption on the theory of why you are here. based upon many conversations with atheists and scientists about this very topic. The leaps of belief (we can call it "faith" if you want or keep it at belief, but the semantics are exactly the same) you take to get where you are today are enormous. What collected all the matter of the universe all in the same space? What caused the snap and sudden expansion? How did the primordial soup create life? How did life go from unicellular to multicellular to differentiated organs, etc, etc, etc, etc.....the list of stretches beyond our current understanding are very large and despite knowing exactly how life exists, we still can not create life in a perfect modelled system with all the parts. There are so many aspects of your life that require so many leaps of faith, just to explain how you got here today, that to say "lets stick to truth" is an impossibility.

But on the other side, we have a historical record of a man, Jesus of nazareth, who claimed to be the Son of God incarnate. The prophets from thousands of years before Him gave writings (the old testament) which not only predicted His coming, how He would be born, but also how He would serve, how He would die, and then we have historical record of His resurrection and the first hand accounts of His living on earth after He was resurrected and seeing Him ascend to heaven. This is not faith, in as much as any historical record is a faith driven belief, this is historical record, well preserved and well documented over the two millennia since His death.

As part of that structure, the writings that were passed down in the Old Testament give a record of how the Earth was formed, who did the work, and more importantly the WHY. The whole Bible is about the why, with a little how, but mostly the why. Yes this structure requires some leaps of faith, the biggest one being that there is a God who cares about us individually and desires what's best for each of us. But the leaps of faith all tie into a singular WHY that is coherent, and all leads to the finality of Jesus and His purpose and mission on earth...to bring salvation of a fallen world and its people back to a loving all powerful God.

I won't get into the other religions of the world as they are not pertinent to the struggle between truth and faith. But the reality of it remains, in order to believe in the two truths each of us possess, there are stretches of faith in all directions. If we want to be really truthful, the stretches of faith are A LOT longer in your direction than in mine, but you can not realistically say that you don't hold on to some sort of faith structure even if you call it "science". I put science in parentheses there simply because the origination of the universe stuff is not real science, it is all theory with no real way to test, and most of it is the "best educated guess, since we are here, we got here somehow". I believe science can be done really well, but it can also be abused and cause a lot of doubt for people who struggle with truth. I am a physician, as such I have a science education and understand the scientific process a lot more than most. I also feel science will eventually be able to create life in a lab one day, but that will not exclude the possibility of God, since God gave the blueprint on how to create life. Kind of like the joke where scientists finally create life out of dirt, and God comes back saying, "make your own dirt and then come talk". Science and Chrisitanity do not have to be mutually exclusive. They actually fit together quite nicely and science gives the HOW and Christianity gives us the WHY behind the HOW.

I am sure there are parts of this that are not well written, so please feel free to ask questions or drive nails into my post. I am very willing to discuss.
1. Let’s take away faith and focus on truth. There are two truths: you're here, and you're not God.

Agreed. I’m here, and I’m not God. But neither of those things point to the existence of a deity. They just establish that I’m a finite being living in a physical universe—something no one is disputing.


2. So how did you get here? The Big Bang? Evolution? Those are huge leaps of faith, especially since science doesn’t really know how life began.

Actually, those aren’t leaps of faith—they’re the best explanations based on the evidence we have. The Big Bang and evolution are supported by mountains of data. Scientists admit they don’t yet know exactly how life began, but "I don’t know" is honest. It’s not the same as saying "God must’ve done it." That’s inserting an answer without evidence.

3. But how do you explain something coming from nothing? Or life from non-life? Science hasn’t proven those things, so your belief system has major holes.

Science doesn’t claim to have all the answers. But uncertainty isn’t a reason to believe anything you want. Just because we don’t fully understand the origin of the universe or life doesn’t mean it’s reasonable to insert a supernatural explanation, especially one from a specific religion with ancient texts and miracle claims.

4. Still, it seems to take more faith to believe in unguided processes than in an intelligent designer. Look how complex life is.

Complexity doesn’t prove design, it just proves that complex things exist. Evolution explains how complexity can arise naturally through gradual processes over time. It’s messy with lots of imperfect dead ends. Design would suggest perfection and purpose. But nature is full of errors, and suffering which is not expected from God the designer.

5. Okay, but we do have historical evidence: Jesus of Nazareth, the resurrection, the fulfilled prophecies. That’s not just faith—it’s documented history.

What we have are ancient texts, written decades after the events by anonymous authors, with contradictions and supernatural claims. That’s not strong historical evidence—it’s what you’d expect from mythology or legend. There’s no independent confirmation of a resurrection, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The Bible is not a neutral source.

6. But the Bible gives a coherent “why” behind existence. Science can’t do that it just tells us how.

The idea that we need a cosmic “why” is human-centered thinking. Not everything needs a purpose. The moon doesn’t exist for a reason—it just exists. Life can have meaning without a divine God. We create meaning through our relationships, our values, and the impact we have on others. We don’t need a supernatural story to give our lives worth.

7. But everyone has a belief system. You trust science. I trust God.

I trust science because it earns that trust—it makes testable predictions, corrects itself, and delivers results. Faith in God doesn’t operate that way. It asks you to believe without evidence, or in spite of contradictory evidence. That’s not the same thing.

8. Atheism takes faith.

Atheism isn’t faith at all. It’s just the lack of belief in gods due to insufficient evidence. I don’t believe in Zeus, Thor, or numerous other gods because I haven’t seen good reasons to. If that changes, I’ll reconsider. Until then, I’ll stick with evidence, logic, and openness to being wrong.

And since we are doing some thought experiments a serious question that I think demonstrates the fundamental difference between believers and non believers. What evidence would demonstrate to most believers and nonbelievers that they were wrong on the existence of God. My experience has been most believers will simply disregard any evidence that does not support the existence of God and call it a test of faith, attribute it to the devil, claim it is the fulfillment of some Biblical prophesy, etc. Most nonbelievers on the other hand can cite numerous instances of evidence that would persuade them God exists.
 
I believe there is evidence that God exists everywhere. Mankind is made in the image of God. All 3 times my wife was pregnant and gave birth, I experienced evidence of Gods existence. Last year I was in Alaska and just looking up I experienced evidence of Gods existence. When I look at every sunset, thru every microscope, at every living creature and how they were created for certain areas but not others I am experiencing Gods existence.

Personally, I believe it takes more faith to believe that all of these things are just coincidence or evolution. There’s a lot of unknowns and things we still can’t explain….it all points to Him who created everything.
 
I appreciate the comments and quotes and commentary.

I am really willing to talk to anyone about these concepts, but if you ask me to leave my baggage at the front door, you must first also be willing to leave your baggage at the front door. Saying I have to give up my faith in God to talk to you is fine, but you have to give up your faith in the untested, unrepeatable, never seen before and unable to be performed scientific theories that you cling to as well. If you are willing to do that, feel free to comment.

The holes in the scientific realm that relate to the creation of the universe and creation of life after the universe are so big, they require faith to believe in. Any one with a bit of understanding of the scientific process must acknowledge that, or they are ignoring the scientific process. It is faith that in some point in the future when we can figure it out, we will figure it out, but it is faith nonetheless. For what is faith, but belief in something unseen.

We have not seen the beginning of the universe, we have not seen life spontaneously originate. We have not seen evolution on a macro scale occur. Instead, we see mutations that are deleterious to species, we see species going extinct. We see no new speciation. We are witnessing a dying biological world, and this was going on well before the industrial revolution, so we cant even blame it on humans.

Why is that? I have an explanation. But "science" does not even acknowledge the reality of the situation. They keep talking about how things take millennia and longer to create one meaningful mutation and that is how speciation occurs...if we wait that long, the species will all be dead and the only living things left on the earth will be cockroaches.


I do think some get caught up in the word faith and reject anything related to faith because they equate it to religion of some sort, and some have a almost violent reaction to the word let alone the concept of religion. I have tried to unpack why some people have such reactions, and get accused of being a counselor and how they have no issues and trying to put God guilt on them is not right, etc, etc....it all boils down to a simple question and simple answer most are unwilling to answer honestly:

Why did you come to this thread and post?

Answer that question honestly, and if the answer is anything BUT seeking God, then your motivations are worldly and you will not likely understand anything being discussed. Not because you aren't earnestly trying to see the truth, but because you are blinded to the truth in some manner. I pray you all will eventually see the truth before it is too late. I know at some point, you all will see the Truth
 
I believe there is evidence that God exists everywhere. Mankind is made in the image of God. All 3 times my wife was pregnant and gave birth, I experienced evidence of Gods existence. Last year I was in Alaska and just looking up I experienced evidence of Gods existence. When I look at every sunset, thru every microscope, at every living creature and how they were created for certain areas but not others I am experiencing Gods existence.

Personally, I believe it takes more faith to believe that all of these things are just coincidence or evolution. There’s a lot of unknowns and things we still can’t explain….it all points to Him who created everything.
Non believers can be in awe of the birth of their children and the beauty of an Alaska sky.

You are answering what makes you believe in God. What would persuade you your belief was wrong?
 
Non believers can be in awe of the birth of their children and the beauty of an Alaska sky.

You are answering what makes you believe in God. What would persuade you your belief was wrong?
I have a very mechanically focused mind. Everything I see I always find myself asking the question “ How did they do that?” Or “Why does that happen like that” or “ How is that made like that ?”

I understand everyone can be and should be in awe of a newborn and creation. But the formation process, the ins and outs of “How in the world did this happen” is what points me to God.
For example this is how I think, I used to drive my wife nuts at the OBGYN doctor. I always asked the doctor what makes my child’s heart start beating? Did we hit a pothole and all of a sudden thump thump thump…..??? And every time the doctors answer was”well that’s just what happens at this stage in pregnancy 😁. Where else does something get put into motion like a heartbeat without any other factors? It all points to God

Don’t even get me started about our human bodies and how our immune system works! Wow it’s just incredible.
 
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