The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

[Dos Perros]

Back to miracles...what about the ones contradicted by existing and quite strong scientific evidence? For example, we know we are not all descendants of the souls on the Ark, and we know the timescales are much longer than the Bible accounts for. How can that be reconciled with faith? I see four possibilities.

1) We have an imperfect understanding of the science of it. We are just flat out wrong. The story in the Bible is to be interpreted quite literally and is factually correct.

2) The science is sound. But the story of the Ark in the Bible is wrong in some way. Maybe the entire earth didn't flood, the story was exaggerated, something like that.

3) The scientific conclusions are sound, but God has purposely contaminated the scientific evidence. Maybe he did this to test our faith? Suppose it could for some other reason...I wouldn't presume to understand the motivations of the creator of the universe.

4) There is no God.

I see 2 or 3 as the most likely, and certainly that the sum total of probabilities of 2 and 3 are quite large compared to 1 or 4, or even 1 and 4 combined. This is the shit I wrestle with when I wake up at night.

 

[UKwildcatfan]

Religion and politics need their own forum.

 

[Shortschaf]

Back to miracles...what about the ones contradicted by existing and quite strong scientific evidence? For example, we know we are not all descendants of the souls on the Ark, and we know the timescales are much longer than the Bible accounts for. How can that be reconciled with faith? I see four possibilities.

1) We have an imperfect understanding of the science of it. We are just flat out wrong. The story in the Bible is to be interpreted quite literally and is factually correct.

2) The science is sound. But the story of the Ark in the Bible is wrong in some way. Maybe the entire earth didn't flood, the story was exaggerated, something like that.

3) The scientific conclusions are sound, but God has purposely contaminated the scientific evidence. Maybe he did this to test our faith? Suppose it could for some other reason...I wouldn't presume to understand the motivations of the creator of the universe.

4) There is no God.

I see 2 or 3 as the most likely, and certainly that the sum total of probabilities of 2 and 3 are quite large compared to 1 or 4, or even 1 and 4 combined. This is the shit I wrestle with when I wake up at night.

You are taking things too literal--and many Christians make that mistake too. There are certain teachings that are dogma, and some that are not.
Belief of a worldwide flood that killed all inhabitants besides Noah's family is not a dogmatic teaching in Christianity

 

[Dos Perros]

You are taking things too literal--and many Christians make that mistake too. There are certain teachings that are dogma, and some that are not.
Belief of a worldwide flood that killed all inhabitants besides Noah's family is not a dogmatic teaching in Christianity

The writer of Genesis (traditionally believed to be Moses) most certainly had no idea the earth was round let alone what inhabitants might live on the other side.

Ok, I can accept that. Thank you.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

Not to mention that the tree was "the tree of knowledge of good and evil" meaning that, prior to eating the fruit, they didn't have that knowledge.

It's like throwing a toddler out into the street because they don't know calculus.

The verse is twisted to make it sound like the fruit was only about gaining knowledge of good and evil, so many people forget the next part:

"....and you will be like God"

The idea about the fruit isn't that it imparted knowledge. That knowledge was being given by God to Adam and Eve in their daily walks and life with Him. God had one rule for Adam and Eve. Only one. Do not even touch the fruit of the tree in the center of the garden or "you will die". The serpent tempts the woman by saying she wont die but will instead become like God himself, knowing both good and evil.

The point of the sin is not about the knowledge, it was about the desire to become gods ourselves. As humans, we all have a god struggle, every single one of us. We all want to control every aspect of our lives, but without the full knowledge of what that looks like or what the future will bring, or how that will affect others. God knows all that. We have no way of knowing it.

So the punishment for wanting to become gods ourselves is death. God asks us to give our lives to Him, and Jesus says we all need to die to ourselves on the daily and carry our own crosses in order to live in eternity with Him. This is concept IS the fulfillment of the original sin issue. We are not god-like. We can not be. But we try to be. So we must give up our will to the Father's will to be transformed into another Adam walking alongside Him on this earth.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

Back to miracles...what about the ones contradicted by existing and quite strong scientific evidence? For example, we know we are not all descendants of the souls on the Ark, and we know the timescales are much longer than the Bible accounts for. How can that be reconciled with faith? I see four possibilities.

1) We have an imperfect understanding of the science of it. We are just flat out wrong. The story in the Bible is to be interpreted quite literally and is factually correct.

2) The science is sound. But the story of the Ark in the Bible is wrong in some way. Maybe the entire earth didn't flood, the story was exaggerated, something like that.

3) The scientific conclusions are sound, but God has purposely contaminated the scientific evidence. Maybe he did this to test our faith? Suppose it could for some other reason...I wouldn't presume to understand the motivations of the creator of the universe.

4) There is no God.

I see 2 or 3 as the most likely, and certainly that the sum total of probabilities of 2 and 3 are quite large compared to 1 or 4, or even 1 and 4 combined. This is the shit I wrestle with when I wake up at night.

You are wrestling with the exact scenario I described in my post above about the Genesis tree of knowledge.

You want all the answers, which is understandable. We all would love to have all the answers. But what if, you did have all the answers you seek in the above post, would it not just lead to more? You are seeking knowledge of the mystery of God. This is something we humans will NEVER figure out.

At some point, you have to put out a lifeline and say, this part is not understandable to me, but I will fully trust it regardless...and that applies to any aspect of religion, science, or life. There are just things we as humans will never have a full grasp of.

I guess my question back to you is pretty simple:

Do you want to believe in a god that is so small and wimpy that you think you should be able to know all about it and understand it fully?

I certainly want nothing to do with that kind of god.

I prefer to believe in the God of the universe, an all powerful, all knowing, full of love and mercy, who demands justice but gave a simple path for such justice to be paid kind of God, who is capable of miracles and doing things completely beyond my expectations and understanding. That is a God I am willing to follow.

 

[rabbithuntr]

Back to miracles...what about the ones contradicted by existing and quite strong scientific evidence? For example, we know we are not all descendants of the souls on the Ark, and we know the timescales are much longer than the Bible accounts for. How can that be reconciled with faith? I see four possibilities.

How do we know we aren’t all descended from Noah? Look up common recent ancestor. The whole world can trace their lineage back to some who live less than 3500 years ago. What other issues do you have with a young earth? Also I just saw the other day that they discovered chariot wheels in the bottom of the Red Sea how did they get there? There is so much evidence to support the miracles in the Bible. The Bible claim to be completely true, the word of God and indirectly the ultimate authority on everything.

 

[Bugger]

You are taking things too literal--and many Christians make that mistake too. There are certain teachings that are dogma, and some that are not.
Belief of a worldwide flood that killed all inhabitants besides Noah's family is not a dogmatic teaching in Christianity

It’s these kinds of arguments over interpretations that ran me away from religion as a kid.
“And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, livestock, beasts, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died. 23 He blotted out every living thing that was on the face of the ground, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens. They were blotted out from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those who were with him in the ark.”
That states pretty clearly that it wasn’t local, but since science debunks that possibility without extreme magical influence, then it must need interpretation. Is the Bible God’s final and perfect word or is it not? Could God have recreated all the diversity of humans and animals to match the current populations? Sure, but then why not mention that since it would arguably be more important than the creation of Adam and Eve?
If it was only a local event then it’s not even a worthy story. There are localized floods all the time, many of which in the US have affected mostly Christians instead of saving them like in the Noah story. Why would that happen?

I’m not anti-Christian by any means. I just believe both sides are equally valid in their own ways.
ADD: I had these thoughts while grappling with the idea of staying with the church as a young adult. I think the interpretations of the Bible change the narrative and make it easier to have faith, but is that really being a true believer? If not, then does that qualify to make it to heaven if the belief is a modified version?

 

[Dos Perros]

@Texasbuckeye I don't think what I want matters. Only the truth matters.

 

[Dos Perros]

The whole world can trace their lineage back to some who live less than 3500 years ago.

I disagree.

 

[Hill Difficulty]

@Dos Perros

[In the event I get banned for violating a file upload rule... It's been real.]

3 scanned (pdf) pages from book, Miracles (1947) - see CS Lewis on Naturalism vs Supernaturalism.

[Edit: removed file attachment 7/12]

 

[Texasbuckeye]

@Texasbuckeye I don't think what I want matters. Only the truth matters.

Agree only the truth matters. So what is your truth?

Is your truth one where you believe in a god but do not believe that god is powerful enough to perform miracles that are said to have occurred due to that god, simply because you don't think that is possible?

Or is your truth one where you believe in a god that is capable of miracles beyond what you think is possible?

Your answer will either shackle you or break those shackles free.

"You believe because you have seen me. Blessed are those who believe without seeing me"

There is nothing wrong with struggling along this path. It is very normal. And for an earnest intellectual person, the struggle is real. Trust me when I say that. So please do not think I am belittling you or trying to provoke anything out of you by my responses. I am just trying to get to the root of where I see you struggling (at least per your posts here)

 

[go_deep]

@Texasbuckeye I don't think what I want matters. Only the truth matters.

Buddy, you're on the right track!

 

[Beagle1]

And I’m the one cherry picking? You see that right?

Eve wasn’t the only one punished for their actions. Adam was cursed. And so was the snake. So was the land. So were the animals. Because evil/sin had entered into what was made as pure and perfect.
Romans 8 says that whole creation waits with eager longing for the redemption of the children of God.

Who’s hiding that God is wrathful? Thank God for his wrath. Thank God for his vengeance. Don’t you believe in justice? Aren’t you the one telling me all about fairness? Tell me, do the judges often ask criminals what their punishment should be? Then why do you feel entitled to determine what is fair for God to do? Are you perfect? Do you understand how the stars were made? Did you speak the earth into existence? Do you uphold the universe with your words? Because that’s the God I serve and believe in. And, yes, thank Him that He is vengeful and wrathful and that justice will be served. But, one more time, for the people sitting in the back of the room, God is a loving God who has made a way for you and the rest of everyone else in here to be saved. You didn’t earn it, you don’t deserve it, but it’s there for you because He loves you.


And I’m the one cherry picking!? Give me a break.

As to cherry picking you need to review your posts. I never discussed Adam’s punishment because you never did. I was simply responding to what you said about Eve and commenting on the unfairness of it. So explain to me how that is cherry picking.

But now that you brought up the snake and Adam’s punishment. The snake is an easy one. I don’t much care about the snake being told he and all other snakes will have to crawl around. As to Adam and every male descendent going forward their punishments were more unfair than Eve’s in the sense they introduced mortality to mankind. Once again you have a couple who disobeyed a command of God and for this all of mankind is essentially eternally punished in various painful ways the most serious being death. I have no problem saying that’s not indicative of a kind and loving God.

Interesting take by you now equating a wrathful and vengeful God with justice. Do judges ask criminals what their punishment should be - no. But they also don’t get to act on wrathful and vengeful impulses and call it justice. And I am confident no judge would sentence a couple who ate a forbidden fruit and their descendants to the punishments Adam and Eve and their descendants received from God.

I feel entitled to comment on the unfairness of the punishments meted out to Adam and Eve for the same reason you feel entitled to defend them.

Am I perfect? No, just like Adam and Eve I am imperfect . Since God knowingly created us imperfect beings you would think he would know and understand that at some point Adam and Eve were going to act imperfectly whether it was eating the forbidden fruit or some other major sinful behavior. It had to happen given our nature. Is this not true? Yet he punishes them and their descendants with eternal pain. You consider that justice, I don’t.

For the people sitting in the back of the room. So God creates us imperfectly, severely punishes us for acting imperfectly but later expresses his love to us in spite of our imperfections by wanting to help save us from the eternal punishments he previously sentenced us to.

And I do know how the stars were made. I also know that you and I are made of those stars.

 

[Jpsmith1]

More like a teenager that is fully provided for, fully understanding what their instructions are, and still disobeying their parents

Not entirely sure that's better.

Having parented teenagers, "because I said so" is an extremely poor reason for them and obedience isn't generally a thing I would expect, especially with such flimsy reasoning. An omniscient deity would 100% know they're going to disobey before they did it.

It screams setup to me.

This God sets up a test, knowing full well that his humans will fail it.

 

[Jpsmith1]

How do we know we aren’t all descended from Noah? Look up common recent ancestor. The whole world can trace their lineage back to some who live less than 3500 years ago.

Y-chromosomal Adam - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

You might want to reconsider the fact contents of this assertion.

I'm finding that the MRCA Y-Chromosomal Adam goes back somewhere north of 150k years and could be as far back as 300k.

Its also important to understand that this doesn't trace back to a single individual but to what is usually termed a genetic bottleneck or a small group of individuals from whom a population descends.

 

[molliesmaster]

“He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?”
Micah 6:8


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jpsmith1]

@Texasbuckeye I don't think what I want matters. Only the truth matters.

Agree only the truth matters. So what is your truth?



"You believe because you have seen me. Blessed are those who believe without seeing me

On 'truth'

Is there any assertion that cannot be accepted on faith, regardless of the truth of it?

Is it a good way to know true things?

Every single religion accepts their claims "on faith" right? All the various denominations of Christianity, Judaism and Islam. They all hold "faith" out as their reason to believe what they believe.

Are they ALL 'true'? Of course not. All of the competing and contradictory assertions makes it impossible for all faith based assertions to be true.

This, more than anything else, makes me look very hard at the use of faith as a way to know true things and it really doesn't rise to the level I require.

 

[Shortschaf]

Not entirely sure that's better.

Having parented teenagers, "because I said so" is an extremely poor reason for them and obedience isn't generally a thing I would expect, especially with such flimsy reasoning. An omniscient deity would 100% know they're going to disobey before they did it.

It screams setup to me.

This God sets up a test, knowing full well that his humans will fail it.

Firstly, yes it is an improvement of your analogy of a toddler not knowing calculus lol. We were instructed not to eat a fruit, God explained why (that we will die), and then given everything in return at Eden. Not calculus

Secondly, one could say that the ten commandments are a "setup" as well by your own thought process above. So I do not subscribe to that. Just because humans do it, and God loves humans, does not therefore make all acts justified or God cruel

God gave us free will. Although the Lord knows the outcome in advance, it is ourselves performing the acts.
I agree that is certainly one of the more mysterious parts of faith though: "Why do bad things ("bad" according to us humans) happen if God knows the outcome?"

 

[go_deep]

Sometimes "bad" things happen, or what we think are bad in the moment are for the better good and lessons to be learned.
In my 20's I got laid off from work while my wife was 5 months pregnant, lost insurance, we dang near went broke, worst 18 months of my life, or so I thought. Ended up 1,000 miles away, working in a place, for an employer that was light-years better than where I was, and likely never would have left the previous place if I didn't get laid off.
Bad in the moment, yes. Bad for more than a moment, yes. Did that bad turn out to be good, yes. Did I learn a lot about myself and grow a lot in that time, absolutely!

Sometimes these "bad" things that happen to us, are really just a cumulation of bad and poor choice on our part, but we can't blame ourselves, so we find a scape goat and say, why does God allow this evil to happen in our lives, in the world?!?
When we just really at the end of the day make poor choices that have consequences.