The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

[Beagle1]

To believe the absolute nonexistence of something is inherently close minded. Not open minded

The "internally inconsistent claims" you say exist are often, actually very consistent among the educated practicers of their faith. Many things are not straightforward. Not everyone is a theology major in their own religion (as great as that would be) so the "gotcha" moments on the average layperson is not evidence of inconsistency. It's evidence of a lack of education, which absolutely exists in every collection of people on every topic.

To your point on inconsistent claims though, some of those are in fact the result of the large amount of denominations that exist.

And some things that are not settled are simply deemed "mysteries of faith". I can see how those can be construed as an "inconsistency" from the outside looking in

You are misunderstanding. With religion being the big exception most people believe in things they have found support for. Am I “inherently close minded” not to believe in the existence of Santa Claus or Zeus? I could be wrong but since I have seen no rational reason for believing in them I don’t.

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods not a claim that gods are impossible. I would welcome being proved wrong.
And yes inconsistencies and using the mystery of faith as a catch all to cover for those inconsistencies moves the needle more towards the nonexistence of God.

 

[Beagle1]

Pounding the square peg in the round hole does not work. Atheism is not a belief system. It is a lack of belief in gods. Calling it a belief system is like calling not doing golf a hobby. As to providing proof that’s up to you not the atheist.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

Dude, people been giving examples all thru this thread that have nothing to with faith, you are looking for something that will never happen until its too late (perhaps).

You are using science and proveability as the backbone of your argument, and i asked you before and will ask again, do you base your life solely on things that are reliable, repeatable and provable?

 

[Dos Perros]

Exactly my point, if you were born in say India and you were raised with Hinduism, would you not be full in on Hinduism and call all other religions or beliefs false?

Hindus still acknowledge Jesus tho.

 

[Jason Snyder]

I don’t have a brush that is specific to each person. You say you’ve done your homework more than critically and it moved your needle. That is all that can be asked.

You use deflection well, but alas, we are deviating from the intent of the thread.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

Hindus still acknowledge Jesus tho.

As do muslims and jewish. I do not think buddhists do, but they are into self revelation rather than anything else.

The difference between these religions and christianity is those religions take someone who called himself the Son of God and the way to salvation, said he was wrong, and yet still state he is a good prophet…talk about some lunacy there.

Jesus is either saying truth, or speaking craziness. He is either the Son of God, or a crazed lunatic. He cant be wrong about His deity, and still be a good teacher/prophet.

Everyone must make their choice if He was right or wrong

Edit: hindus actually call jesus a god, one of hundreds or even thousands. But the concept is still the same, how can someone be a god of many others and claim to he the only way to the one true God?

 

[Beagle1]

@Beagle1 first of all, no one asked uou to come and engage anyone on this thread. I am not asking you to get outta here, but be mindful YOU came here and started spouting stuff that was contra-thead. We have been politely discussing topics with you that you keep bringing up.

You keep asking for proof of this and proof of that…do you live your life only on things that can be repeatedly “proven” and determined by scientific experiments?

I didn’t think I had to be asked. As to you not liking my posts they have only been a response to other posts and I do not believe outside the realm of discussion.

The proof I require on things is directly related to their importance in my life.

Also as to your post about a private message to continue discussing rational reasons to believe or not believe in God I will send you a list of books and articles on this topic.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

Some rhings like love and liyalty have no inherent manner of being “proven” other than feelings, since you can not read minds and can not really know the motivation of the person expressing or showing such things. And can you really even trust feelings since they are simply very influenced puffs of biochemistry in the brain. Do such emotions even really exist?

If you do, proceed to the next question. If not, then just stop here….

Do you believe a spouse cheating on their husband is wrong if the purpose of the cheating is to gain financial freedom or some other worldly gain?

 

[Beagle1]

Some rhings like love and liyalty have no inherent manner of being “proven” other than feelings, since you can not read minds and can not really know the motivation of the person expressing or showing such things. And can you really even trust feelings since they are simply very influenced puffs of biochemistry in the brain. Do such emotions even really exist?

If you do, proceed to the next question. If not, then just stop here….

Do you believe a spouse cheating on their husband is wrong if the purpose of the cheating is to gain financial freedom or some other worldly gain?

Interesting but now I think we are off track and going down a different rabbit hole.

 

[mattflipper]

To those who argue against the belief in God, have you ever tried to have a relationship with Him? I’d bet the answer is no and that many take the approach that that He is not real more from the worry of what having such a relationship might do to their way of life. As in, how it would be impact someone’s daily routine or what activities they would no longer feel comfortable engaging in. Keep in mind that this is likely out of ignorance of what being a Christian really is because it doesn’t mean you can’t have fun or continue to live a life likely similar to your current one. But the real question is have you tried to have a relationship or just said I think I won’t believe in Him or I’m not sure if I want to. Similar to “how do you know you don’t like vegetables if you never tried them”? Also, it seems from the reading here that lots of effort has been put into these arguments from the perspective of “let me see if can disprove the existence rather than give it a shot then make a decision”. Why not give it a try and see how it shakes out for you. While some of the arguments presented here seem plausible (like they look good on paper but won’t really work kind of plausible) to someone who doesn’t fully understand what having a relationship with Christ is like but once you do all of what has been posted here loses all credibility. Give it a shot, trust me, it’s worth it.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

Interesting but now I think we are off track and going down a different rabbit hole.

Not actually at all. If you follow your line of logic, the result may surprise you.

Ypu are asking us to let go of feelings and emotion. I am asking if you can logically accept that feeling and emotion are real since they can not be either proven nor verified. They can be observed only from outside, and can be simulated with specific brain inputs which leads one who is scientific minded to say that emotions are not real, they are simply biochemical reactions that are the result of external stimuli or some other function.

Yet, we all experience emotions. We all have been fearful, elated, happy, loved….

So are emotions, something not reliable since it is easily simulated with nothing more than chemicals, something no one can really prove, and something that has no manner of which to be really understood fully given the uniqueness of each person (what causes one to fear something and creates no such emption in another, same for happiness, etc), REAL?

i will await your answer.

 

[average]

As I've seen a few recommendations to try Jesus, as a Christian who feels a bit out of place these days and has quit attending I'll ask this question to help get me back to church. I grew up Wisconsin Synod Lutheran. Very "strict" "traditional", have a hard time going to church these days without feeling like I'm among people who ignore the Word. I'm not looking for a church that supports gay marriage (ELCA for example) but I have no problem worshipping next to rainbow haired folks and other "riff raff". Any denomination recommendations? I'm intrigued by the Jehovah's witnesses but my Lutheran upbringing definitely conflicts with a few interpretations there.

 

[Jason Snyder]

Any denomination recommendations?

We attend a Foursqare. Prior to that it was Presbyterian. Before that it was another Foursquare.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

Maybe try a nondenominational Christ following God fearing church. I realize in some places those can be hard to find, and also realize there are a lot regional differences in denominations, and being in Texas i surely do not know anything about your area.

Sometimes non-denoms can be weird tho.

Nothing wrong with going to some different churches and seeing what sticks.

 

[average]

We attend a Foursqare. Prior to that it was Presbyterian. Before that it was another Foursquare.

Thanks, I'll put them on the list looks like I have one in town, no glaring belief differences at first glance. It's a pretty conflicting feeling looking for a church/possibly leaving a church. I feel a bit hypocritical, one shouldn't cherry pick the word at the same time there's gotta be over 100 denominations out there all with slightly different ideas.

Went to a couple non denominational churches when traveling, definitely a mixed bag but also very welcoming. I've sat in some that made a guy like Johnny Paycheck

 

[mattflipper]

As I've seen a few recommendations to try Jesus, as a Christian who feels a bit out of place these days and has quit attending I'll ask this question to help get me back to church. I grew up Wisconsin Synod Lutheran. Very "strict" "traditional", have a hard time going to church these days without feeling like I'm among people who ignore the Word. I'm not looking for a church that supports gay marriage (ELCA for example) but I have no problem worshipping next to rainbow haired folks and other "riff raff". Any denomination recommendations? I'm intrigued by the Jehovah's witnesses but my Lutheran upbringing definitely conflicts with a few interpretations there.

Try some different ones until one sticks. Heaven is going to be filled with folks from all denominations so there isn’t “just one”. I’m Southern Baptist which tends to have a certain way about them but went to a non denominational church for a few years that was pretty far off from where I went before and where I go now and it was a good fit for me. Any of them are better than not going so good luck with it and I hope you find something that works. And on the “riff-raff” and such at church I love seeing that since it reminds us that you don’t have to be a “certain type” of person to be there Sunday morning but rather just a person who loves God.

 

[Jason Snyder]

Thanks, I'll put them on the list looks like I have one in town, no glaring belief differences at first glance. It's a pretty conflicting feeling looking for a church/possibly leaving a church. I feel a bit hypocritical, one shouldn't cherry pick the word at the same time there's gotta be over 100 denominations out there all with slightly different ideas.

A church should be a community to help one another grow in their relationship with God. It it isn’t accomplishing that, well…

We’ve left churches for various reasons. They felt sterile. The pastor was horrible to listen to. The leadership of a church. It’s okay to leave and look for a new one.

At the end of the day, it’s scripture the church should fall back on in its teachings. If that isn’t the foundation, well…

 

[Beagle1]

Not actually at all. If you follow your line of logic, the result may surprise you.

Ypu are asking us to let go of feelings and emotion. I am asking if you can logically accept that feeling and emotion are real since they can not be either proven nor verified. They can be observed only from outside, and can be simulated with specific brain inputs which leads one who is scientific minded to say that emotions are not real, they are simply biochemical reactions that are the result of external stimuli or some other function.

Yet, we all experience emotions. We all have been fearful, elated, happy, loved….

So are emotions, something not reliable since it is easily simulated with nothing more than chemicals, something no one can really prove, and something that has no manner of which to be really understood fully given the uniqueness of each person (what causes one to fear something and creates no such emption in another, same for happiness, etc), REAL?

Even though emotions are subjective experiences that differ from person to person they are caused by brain processes and real. Science doesn't deny they are real. But even though a believer feels God through emotional experiences and those experiences are deeply personal and moving , an emotional conviction doesn't make a belief in God objectively true. So even if your emotions are real, and your interpretation of them is meaningful to you that interpretation is not evidence that God caused them. People feel just as powerfully about different gods—or no god at all. Emotional certainty isn’t enough to prove the cause of it is God related. As I stated in one of my first posts strength of belief ( even when caused by a strong emotional conviction) is not proof of God's existence it just shows we are emotional beings.

 

[Cowbell]

I am an agnostic atheist who stands mostly on the null hypothesis and the burden of proof meaning that someone making an assertion bears the burden to demonstrate the truth of that assertion.

So, if you say that God exists, it it down to you to use evidence to prove that assertion.

I want to revisit this and flesh the response out lest people think I'm here solely to troll. I am genuinely curious about how people think and why people think, act, behave and believe as they do, even myself.

About 15 years ago, I started on a process of continuous self reflection and iterative improvement and refinement that has brought me to today and, ultimately this process continues daily. While I've studied religions and I have read various holy texts, I've never found reason to believe any of them. Even so, there's always that part of me that asks "what if you’re wrong" so I try to engage these kinds of discussions to try to learn more about why people believe

Man I honestly love the way you look at it and your response. If I didn't have a personal relationship with the Lord and know him, I would be right there with you. Churches and religion (that were apart from God) have often brought me more drama than I thought was worth the effort of dealing with it.
I honestly can't point to physical proof of God other than the fruits of what he has done in my life and others lives since we came to walk with him. This is often hard to know or recognize until you see someone go through this change and see what the Holy Spirit (God on earth in humans) can do to mature and change people. I also like your honesty about wondering if you are wrong. I think everyone has those thoughts, and most don't admit it..
I honestly hope you can befriend someone close to you that knows and walks in relationship with God - a real relationship- not just modern church and worldly religion. Someone that you can see God through. These people are becoming less and less in this world but you will recognize them as different because the way they love unconditionally and the grace with which they handle others. Unfortunately, a larger percentage of "Christians" don't really know God - they simply know religion and check their artificial boxes - this is misleading to so many who are looking for answers.
The Case For Christ is also a good read - written by an atheist that found God when he was working to prove God wasn't real.

 

[Jpsmith1]

I’m doing my best to not cherry pick your respond, but it’s definitely worth noting that to this very day there are Catholic priests who have assignments as exorcist. They continually drive out demons in Jesus’s name. This shows repeatable time and time again.

Throughout the dialogue of this thread, you’ve also mentioned the burden of proof through science and how you are constantly researching information (which is great). Would you please consider researching Eucharistic Miracles? Consecrated hosts of our Lord and Savior that are bleeding. Under a microscope these are damaged heart tissue that’s still alive! Samples that have been taken to research facilities without prior knowledge and it cannot be scientifically explained. Some of these miracles have happened within the last 2 decades. These have been repeated and documented over the course of centuries.

He keeps banging steel at 800 yards, yet you keep doubting, saying it’s a fluke.

Jesus reveals himself to us all the time. It’s whether or not we acknowledge him.

Edited: Grammar and readability.

For me to believe in driving out demons, I would first have to believe demons are real which doubles an already difficult burden of proof.