“The 22 Creedmoor Project”

[Harvey_NW]

Multiple record holding BR shooters say there’s a charge node that induces less vertical dispersion. I believe them, but I can’t reliably prove it with my systems.

Pretty much every time I see them say that with their posted results, I run the numbers and average all the groups and then apply the statistical variability based on sample size, and all of the group sizes fall within the expected variability. It cracks me up.

 

[BBob]

Multiple record holding BR shooters say there’s a charge node that induces less vertical dispersion. I believe them, but I can’t reliably prove it with my systems.

Might the difference be the cartridges they have tested and chosen (which is what you allude to)? I suspect so. The BR, BRA, and the WSM cartridges specifically. Very few cartridges seem make the grade at 1K. It seems a little bit more open at 600.

 

[huntnful]

Pretty much every time I see them say that with their posted results, I run the numbers and average all the groups and then apply the statistical variability based on sample size, and all of the group sizes fall within the expected variability. It cracks me up.

Yeah they could be all in their own head for sure. But I’m nowhere near that level of precision to tell them they’re ****** up lol.

But yes, I see a lot of the dispersion testing I only done 1 time. I’d love to see the charge ladder repeated several times where it was completely obvious that there was a node with less vertical dispersion. And the same charges held horizontal lines and the same charges jumped up out of that line repeatedly.

 

[huntnful]

Might the difference be the cartridges they have tested and chosen (which is what you allude to)? I suspect so. The BR, BRA, and the WSM cartridges specifically. Very few cartridges seem make the grade at 1K. It seems a little bit more open at 600.

Could definitely be the case. I just follow them and try to apply some things they do that make sense for me and what I want to/can achieve out of my rifles.

 

[BBob]

and all of the group sizes fall within the expected variability. It cracks me up.

Have you run your analysis on several of the guys that seem to at times defy that? Greg Kulzer and some of his season winning aggs? The guy has shot incredibly well and consistently small at times. He’s not been the only one to pull off some incredible aggs over time.

 

[HuntHarder]

Yeah they could be all in their own head for sure. But I’m nowhere near that level of precision to tell them they’re ****** up lol.

But yes, I see a lot of the dispersion testing I only done 1 time. I’d love to see the charge ladder repeated several times where it was completely obvious that there was a node with less vertical dispersion. And the same charges held horizontal lines and the same charges jumped up out of that line repeatedly.

I did identical ladder tests @ 400 on 2 seperate guns and could not make out any real consistent charge weight. As previously mentioned tho, I chalked it up more to my shooting ability vs. Actual nodes.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Have you run your analysis on several of the guys that seem to at times defy that? Greg Kulzer and some of his season winning aggs? The guy has shot incredibly well and consistently small at times. He’s not been the only one to pull off some incredible aggs over time.

I'm not saying they're not amazing shooters, I'm just saying in most cases they don't defy the statistics that ballisticians have provided with millions of live fire rounds. Agg scores mean the rifle shot groups smaller and bigger than the aggregate. Exactly like the statistics of small sample size say they will.

 

[chamois]

I don’t know anything about reloading, but why do you think there’s a larger increase in velocity from 43gr to 44gr than the rest of the increments?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't know with how many shots were the different velocities determined, in other words, how consistent or realistic they could be, but that lack of regularity in the velocity increase per grain that you mention could well be within the statistical variability of each load.
By the way, this is a very enjoyable thread, @huntnful , thank you and all those that contribute to it.

 

[huntnful]

Double on the first stand. Called in 3 at once. Killed one while they were fighting on their way to the call, and killed the second one on the run at 200 yards. Lucky lol.


A single on the second stand.

 

[waspocrew]

Ya done good!

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Double on the first stand. Called in 3 at once. Killed one while they were fighting on their way to the call, and killed the second one on the run at 200 yards. Lucky lol.
View attachment 822827

A single on the second stand.
View attachment 822828

Don’t be so humble. He head shot that second one on the run at 200 yards folks. Hell of a shot and a dirt nap!

 

[huntnful]

Don’t be so humble. He head shot that second one on the run at 200 yards folks. Hell of a shot and a dirt nap!

View attachment 822837

Haha thanks man . I like the saying “Shooters shoot”. I’m a shooter for sure. Send enough rounds down range, bound to end up with some misses, but also some super cool kills. This one was the later .

 

[justin davis]

Awesome!!

I got a reloading question Don’t know if it relates to this thread or not. But do you guys keep your fired brass separated by number of firings. Like after brass has been fired once. Do you keep them separated by once’s, twice fired etc before reloading.

Or once it has been fired once does it not matter?

 

[Tanner]

Awesome!!

I got a reloading question Don’t know if it relates to this thread or not. But do you guys keep your fired brass separated by number of firings. Like after brass has been fired once. Do you keep them separated by once’s, twice fired etc before reloading.

Or once it has been fired once does it not matter?

I try to organize my reloading and shooting flow so that all brass from the same lot has the same amount of firings on it.

If you buy 200 rounds of brass, I shoot them all u tim they’re once fired and then try to keep them all on the same round of firings, so your trimming schedule, annealing, and discarding when necessary schedules are all the same.

Just makes it easier in the long run since my brain only has room for like 3 things at one time.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I try to organize my reloading and shooting flow so that all brass from the same lot has the same amount of firings on it.

If you buy 200 rounds of brass, I shoot them all u tim they’re once fired and then try to keep them all on the same round of firings, so your trimming schedule, annealing, and discarding when necessary schedules are all the same.

Just makes it easier in the long run since my brain only has room for like 3 things at one time.

This is what I used to do as well. Works well.

 

[Lawnboi]

Awesome!!

I got a reloading question Don’t know if it relates to this thread or not. But do you guys keep your fired brass separated by number of firings. Like after brass has been fired once. Do you keep them separated by once’s, twice fired etc before reloading.

Or once it has been fired once does it not matter?

I keep it separate.

If your annealing it won’t be as much of an issue.

 

[huntnful]

I try to organize my reloading and shooting flow so that all brass from the same lot has the same amount of firings on it.

If you buy 200 rounds of brass, I shoot them all u tim they’re once fired and then try to keep them all on the same round of firings, so your trimming schedule, annealing, and discarding when necessary schedules are all the same.

Just makes it easier in the long run since my brain only has room for like 3 things at one time.

I copy this exactly.

However, don’t stress yourself out if you mix a batch of once fired and twice fired. You more than likely won’t even see it on the target.

Now that I stopped annealing, it really matters even less. But I still keep track of firings to a decent extent and try to prep them in batches.

 

[TaperPin]

Awesome!!

I got a reloading question Don’t know if it relates to this thread or not. But do you guys keep your fired brass separated by number of firings. Like after brass has been fired once. Do you keep them separated by once’s, twice fired etc before reloading.

Or once it has been fired once does it not matter?

The difference between once fired and 10x fired doesn’t seem to matter on target, but it can be easier to track a lot of brass to discard it all after so many shots. If a lot of brass is kept together it reduces things like annealing or trimming, since they don’t have to be done every loading, but maybe every 3rd or 4th, or 5th.

If brass is mixed up, and even new brass mixed in to keep a certain number of loaded rounds available, you need to inspect every case every time for split necks and thinning that will lead to partial head separations. This is normally how my training/plinking ammo is handled. I trim and anneal every load, so it’s slightly more involved, but record keeping isn’t needed.

 

[BBob]

^^^another plus in my book to not anneal

 

[TaperPin]

One issue that comes up is a reliable form of record keeping. Treating 100 cases as a lot works if they are fired at a consistent rate, but if working up loads I keep the same cases with the same powder weight and track case head expansion, so some in those 100 cases quickly get fired a lot while some may not fired until a load is settled on. Hunting loads may use a different bullet and get fired very little, while a training/plinking load might get fired a lot. Do you keep hunting loads separated from plinking? Of course the simplest way is to have different boxes for each bullet type for each cartridge, but my current stable of calibers is around 15. Trying to keep track is more work than simply trimming and annealing every time and letting cases go as necks split, case heads thin, and primer pockets open up.

For plinking ammo I’d go as far as mixing lots of brass and headstamps if firing them shows they are close enough. My loaner gun often gets sent out with the worst brass so if empties get left on the hillside it doesn’t bother me as much as loosing once fired Lapua.