“The 22 Creedmoor Project”

[Lawnboi]

Not to hijack a thread, but just get an Ugly annealer. Way less than an Amp setup, and pretty quick. It’s what I use.

I already have the amp that’s the reason for the amp mate.

 

[HighUintas]

@huntnful , do you have a link to that Alex Wheeler annealing write up? I'd like to read it.

I have tried to simplify my process as much as possible in the last year as well.

Anneal, sometimes
Brush inside neck
Put cases in Ziploc with Lee lube and shake around
Size w standard FL die
Wipe off lube
Trim if needed
Prime and load

I found absolutely no difference in accuracy or speed consistency with this process vs nitpicking everything, annealing every time, etc

 

[Jimbee]

Iv also gone to mainly carbide mandrels due to the galling issues.

Little more expensive.

Same with sizing dies, SAC with the carbide mandrel/decapper keeps things nice and smooth.

Is the moly you use a liquid? Might need to try it. Graphite didn’t do it for me. I wipe imperial on the rim right now but I’m all for something that’s less gummy.

Would you mind explaining the difference between the SAC mandrel/de capper and a normal die expander? If I understand it correctly the mandrel works in place of an expander but just expands the case mouth less after the bushing sizes it? (Less brass movement?) I have thought about just going to 6 and 22CM or 6 and 22GT and buying a SAC die setup.

 

[BBob]

Alex Wheeler annealing write up

He's discussed it a lot. Pay attention to Tom when he shows up in the threads. He shoots, tests and wins a lot.

You are being redirected...

 

[huntnful]

@huntnful , do you have a link to that Alex Wheeler annealing write up? I'd like to read it.

I have tried to simplify my process as much as possible in the last year as well.

Anneal, sometimes
Brush inside neck
Put cases in Ziploc with Lee lube and shake around
Size w standard FL die
Wipe off lube
Trim if needed
Prime and load

I found absolutely no difference in accuracy or speed consistency with this process vs nitpicking everything, annealing every time, etc

Keeping it simple with reloading

I have been shooting 1k for a long time. There are so many rabbit holes you can go down. My opinion is that 99% of your rifles accuracy is the tune. Sorting and measuring help but not until your at a certain level. Glenn Kulzer shot 8 new records in 2021, no other feat has come close in...

www.longrangehunting.com

This is a long thread, but has some serious gems in it about basically just keeping things simple, and less is more most of the time. When tested with high shot counts and at extended ranges with the most precision equipment around.

 

[bpitcher]

Thanks for taking the time to test and write it up.

This kind of stuff is why this place is great.

 

[Lawnboi]

Would you mind explaining the difference between the SAC mandrel/de capper and a normal die expander? If I understand it correctly the mandrel works in place of an expander but just expands the case mouth less after the bushing sizes it? (Less brass movement?) I have thought about just going to 6 and 22CM or 6 and 22GT and buying a SAC die setup.

The mandrel goes through the neck as it exits the bushing. The biggest plus to a standard die on this is that it’s adjustable. So both the sizing and mandrel operation do as little as they need to. The expander is carbide as well so it leaves a nice smooth neck. But yes it expands on the way down like a typical die with a few differences.

The beauty of the sac die is in it all together. Neck shoulder bushing seems to keep doughnuts away, and dosnt leave an unsized portion for brass to build up. They also size farther down the case than most other dies Iv used. I could not measure a difference between the expanding decapper in place and a separate mandrel step, so it all gets done at once. The die is very adjustable and does as good or better of a job than anything. I seat on an arbor press so with this I’m only pulling the lever of the press one time per case.

If you’re not a believer in using a mandrel, they come with a decapping pin. Personally I just use a mandrel, my brass necks always end up dinged up and it just smooths them out.

At one point I was loading 22, 6 and 6.5 off the same die body with only changing bushings, mandrels and shell holders (Redding comp)

They are nice dies, and the time saver is worth the steep price for me. SAC has also been great to work with from a customer service standpoint when I have had questions or gotten the wrong item.

 

[Jimbee]

The mandrel goes through the neck as it exits the bushing. The biggest plus to a standard die on this is that it’s adjustable. So both the sizing and mandrel operation do as little as they need to. The expander is carbide as well so it leaves a nice smooth neck. But yes it expands on the way down like a typical die with a few differences.

The beauty of the sac die is in it all together. Neck shoulder bushing seems to keep doughnuts away, and dosnt leave an unsized portion for brass to build up. They also size farther down the case than most other dies Iv used. I could not measure a difference between the expanding decapper in place and a separate mandrel step, so it all gets done at once. The die is very adjustable and does as good or better of a job than anything. I seat on an arbor press so with this I’m only pulling the lever of the press one time per case.

If you’re not a believer in using a mandrel, they come with a decapping pin. Personally I just use a mandrel, my brass necks always end up dinged up and it just smooths them out.

At one point I was loading 22, 6 and 6.5 off the same die body with only changing bushings, mandrels and shell holders (Redding comp)

They are nice dies, and the time saver is worth the steep price for me. SAC has also been great to work with from a customer service standpoint when I have had questions or gotten the wrong item.

'preciate it!!

 

[huntnful]

Primers are looking a LITTLE flat with 41gr. H4350 in the once fired cases.


I am getting zero bolt click or sort of heavy lift whatsoever. Probably attributed to several things maybe? 1.250 barrel shank, stout action and hard brass? But my speeds are cooking also. So I’m probably a hair in pressure if I had to guess. Going to test 40.5gr. and 40gr. for groups, speeds and pressure signs soon enough.



Still putting together a lot of info/pictures from the last test. But here’s the first 10 down a squeaky clean barrel. Including the first shot with which the barrel had a patch of gun oil down it. This was virgin brass, just brushed and bullets .020 into the lands.

 

[BigDog00]

I understand brushing the necks of fired brass but what does brushing virgin brass do?

 

[huntnful]

I understand brushing the necks of fired brass but what does brushing virgin brass do?

Smooth out the oxidized annealed surface inside the necks. I tested it early in this thread as well. Pretty big difference in seating pressures and ES by just brushing the necks on virgin brass as opposed to not brushing them.

 

[huntnful]

Starting with a completely clean barrel, it basically took 0 shots (first shot is BARELY out of the group, lowest right hit) for the group to come back in after cleaning.


But it took around 25 shots for the barrel to fully speed back up to 3380fps range that it was at before I cleaned. Groups were shot from left to right.


It was starting to feel like I was testing more my abilities and the stability of the environmentals (6-10 MPH 3 o’clock wind) than just the rifles abilities with the two 5 shot groups on top of each other to make a 10 round group.

The first 5 would almost always be 1/2 MOA, or even smaller, and then the next 5 would also be solid, but in a slightly different spot. So for the last test with dirty primer pockets, I shot the 5 shot groups separately.

What I see from this small test is that .040 difference in seating depth made no significant change to group size. And cleaning primer pockets isn’t going to matter in the grand scheme of just hitting the target either (at least after 1 firing).

 

[Schmo]

What I see from this small test is that .040 difference in seating depth made no significant change to group size.

This is interesting! I know others have said the same thing, but then others have said otherwise. Goes back to things being simple! Why I’m on this topic, I have a quick question for you. Doesn’t directly relate to the topic at hand, but not too far off. I don’t mean to derail anything. Question: In your experience, when you shoot a powder ladder with a charge spread of say 2-3 grains, and the ladder doesn’t group well on paper, do you pursue that bullet or load at all, or immediately move on to something else? I’d love to shoot 73 or 75 ELD-Ms out of my Tikka 223 for practice, but powder ladders to find where I get to pressure haven’t grouped well. In fact, none of the 3 different ELD-Ms have shot well. So far, just the 77TMK & Hornady 75 BTHP have shot good. Do I scrap trying to dev any of the ELDs further?

 

[huntnful]

This is interesting! I know others have said the same thing, but then others have said otherwise. Goes back to things being simple! Why I’m on this topic, I have a quick question for you. Doesn’t directly relate to the topic at hand, but not too far off. I don’t mean to derail anything. Question: In your experience, when you shoot a powder ladder with a charge spread of say 2-3 grains, and the ladder doesn’t group well on paper, do you pursue that bullet or load at all, or immediately move on to something else? I’d love to shoot 73 or 75 ELD-Ms out of my Tikka 223 for practice, but powder ladders to find where I get to pressure haven’t grouped well. In fact, none of the 3 different ELD-Ms have shot well. So far, just the 77TMK & Hornady 75 BTHP have shot good. Do I scrap trying to dev any of the ELDs further?

The people that know seating depth matters, have far better equipment and shooting skill than I do in order prove it. If someone who consistently shoots the smallest groups in the world says it makes a difference, it does. But they are literally going from a .3 average to a .2 average. I would just never be able to tell that difference with my equipment. And I always test seating depth… to no avail lol.


I intentionally shoot a powder ladder at the same POA, and if it doesn’t group half ass,
It’s not even worth messing with IMO. Even across 2-3 grains it should shoot just fine. Maybe a slight vertical spread if anything.

If it’s a scattered looking group that’s outside your intended maximum group size, save yourself the headache and move on

 

[Schmo]

I intentionally shoot a powder ladder at the same POA, and if it doesn’t group half ass,
It’s not even worth messing with IMO. Even across 2-3 grains it should shoot just fine. Maybe a slight vertical spread if anything.

If it’s a scattered looking group that’s outside your intended maximum group size, save yourself the headache and move on

Thanks! That’s basically what I was told by someone else, and I just wanted to verify that from another loader.

Really appreciate the testing on the 22 Creed. Very interesting to see all the different techniques used and their effect (or not) on groups.

 

[huntnful]

Thanks! That’s basically what I was told by someone else, and I just wanted to verify that from another loader.

Really appreciate the testing on the 22 Creed. Very interesting to see all the different techniques used and their effect (or not) on groups.

No problem!

It’s cool testing things I’ve always thought, or read. And just seeing it first hand.

I don’t think I’ve ever “tuned” a load honestly. Not that it can’t be done. It just takes and insane amount of effort and verification to prove it.

As you see here. The same exact load has shot from .5 to .8 ten shot groups at 100 yards.

 

[barehandlineman]

Seating depth will show itself more at distance. More on some barrels then others and more with certain bullets then others. The eldm line seems more forgiving if you will for seating. But i also think they can never shoot as small as a tips would or bergers

 

[Lawnboi]

Yea cleaning primer pockets is a waste of time, you can knock that one off the list.

That gun is shooting well. I could have predicted a velocity increase and being on the ragged edge of pressure. Would be interesting to see you continue at that but I do get toning it down.

 

[huntnful]

Seating depth will show itself more at distance. More on some barrels then others and more with certain bullets then others. The eldm line seems more forgiving if you will for seating. But i also think they can never shoot as small as a tips would or bergers

Yeah I don’t think the ELDM line can compare to Berger as far as pure precision at longer ranges day in and day out. I just like how they well they kill, they’re cheap, and they still normally shoot pretty damn good.

Yea cleaning primer pockets is a waste of time, you can knock that one off the list.

That gun is shooting well. I could have predicted a velocity increase and being on the ragged edge of pressure. Would be interesting to see you continue at that but I do get toning it down.

I have 40.5gr and 40gr. loaded up to test. Just curious to compare case heads and possibly group sizes, but I’m sure they’ll all shoot well.

@Dioni A gave me a good test to try as well. Wetting the cases and see how they pressure up in the chamber to mimicking a moist rainy hunt. I have 40, 41 & 42gr. loaded up for that test as well.

 

[Lawnboi]

Yeah I don’t think the ELDM line can compare to Berger as far as pure precision at longer ranges day in and day out. I just like how they well they kill, they’re cheap, and they still normally shoot pretty damn good.


I have 40.5gr and 40gr. loaded up to test. Just curious to compare case heads and possibly group sizes, but I’m sure they’ll all shoot well.

@Dioni A gave me a good test to try as well. Wetting the cases and see how they pressure up in the chamber to mimicking a moist rainy hunt. I have 40, 41 & 42gr. loaded up for that test as well.

Careful with that. You’re up there in pressure according to velocity. Wrecking some brass will be okay but I’d hate to etch my firing pin on a load that honestly is probably not safe with any moisture involved.

I water test my match rounds and will on my hunting stuff as welll, though I now purposely load fairly low because of it. Quite a few match shooters have figured this out after blowing brass on rainy days. Im shooting 42 grains of h4831sc on my 22 creed.