Temp for leaving elk carcass overnight

I've done everything "by the book" before in CO and still lost meat to a bear. We moved the quarters several hundred yards from the carcass and spent quite a bit of time in the immediate areas on our knees debonding meat. Our gear was laid out on the ground and I'm sure we both pissed at once or twice in the areas as well. Hung our deboned meat up as high as we could get it and still lost ~40 lbs of meat to a bear that night who came along and ate an entire game bag worth of hanging meat. The bear didn't even hit the carcass or gut pile.
 
Did a Rokcast with @Larry Bartlett and his extensive data on meat care in warmer temperatures. Might give it a listen

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Original question was asked if you shot an elk, knew it was fatal but couldn’t break it down.

I don’t know about anyone else, but if I killed an elk, knew where it was laying, I wouldn’t b able to sleep that night if I just went back to camp. Way to jacked up to think about sleep. Plus that adrenaline helps you pack meat faster 😜
 
@LoH. Good info. Definitely my experience is if you cool it too fast no matter what the meat ends up tougher on the plate. However, You get varying opinions about what constitutes tough on the internet lol. Growing up in northern MN it was standard procedure to gut them, drag them out whole and hang them up on the buck pole for up to a week. If it was very warm temps we would prop open the cavity, maybe split the pelvis and open the chest and wind pipe. Otherwise nothing further needed. Always was awesome tender meat. Now having lived out west for the second half of my life standard procedure has been gutless method quarter and bone and pack out. I do not ever lay a hot quarter in the snow as I hear some recommending. If there is snow it is cold enough temps and no need for that as it will toughen right up. My general experience has been this method has resulted in great meat though not as tender as I like. I don’t have the luxury of hanging anything at home so I’ve experimented with refrigerator aging with mixed results. Side note: I am always worrying about critters getting into my meat if left over night or while I am packing out. It is what it is.
 
I'm not advocating for leaving an animal laying all night, but removing the guts will scrub quite a bit of heat very quickly. If it weren't going to get very cold, a gutted carcass would fair far better than an ungutted animal. Plus you have to consider the gasses coming off the guts which start to build up in 2-3 hours regardless of conditions. "almost nothing"? far from it.

Still though, turn those headlamps on and get to work or don't take the shot.

Agreed...gutting has some benefit over doing nothing. I just don't see the benefit of gutting elk or larger game at any time. The time and mess that is involved...I'd just split the hide down the spine and expose as much meat as possible...or watch the Fred Eichler video of him quartering a moose in just a few minutes (hide on)...that would be another decent option if you were in a hurry.

I will be hunting in heavy Grizz country this fall so this has been a good exercise in getting plans ready...
 
I don't know how directly transferable the experience is to the question at hand, but one of the best most tender deer I've ever eaten was what most people wold probably scrap. Many years ago I shot a doe around 4pm too far back and only got the liver, could tell by the sound of the arrow it wasn't a solid hit so waited til wife was done with her hunt to join me and go look. After dark about 7pm we took off tracking and about 200 yards in we bumped her and watched as she sprinted and ran over two hills as far as we could see with my bright spotlight. Went back to camp and came back in the morning and began tracking. By the time we found her it was about 11:30am or so and 85 degrees in West Texas. She was in the open full sun and looked like she just ran the night before until she died, stiff as a board and covered in flies and the smell was terrible, actually found her by the smell. If I had just stumbled on this deer dead I would have guess she was dead about two days by the condition. Lows that night were low 70's. I hate killing an animal for nothing so decided to skin back a leg and test the meat, smelled fine. Sliced into it a little deeper and cut off a chunk from inner hind and tasted it, tasted fine. I went ahead and skinned out the whole thing gutless but I did sacrifice the tenders and heart and liver on that one and left them. When I process I label all the deer and the date. That was the most tender and flavorful deer we've ever had even to this day, it was on par with our best Elk we've had which is saying a lot because I highly prefer Elk over deer in general.
 
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@LoH. Good info. Definitely my experience is if you cool it too fast no matter what the meat ends up tougher on the plate. However, You get varying opinions about what constitutes tough on the internet lol. Growing up in northern MN it was standard procedure to gut them, drag them out whole and hang them up on the buck pole for up to a week. If it was very warm temps we would prop open the cavity, maybe split the pelvis and open the chest and wind pipe. Otherwise nothing further needed. Always was awesome tender meat. Now having lived out west for the second half of my life standard procedure has been gutless method quarter and bone and pack out. I do not ever lay a hot quarter in the snow as I hear some recommending. If there is snow it is cold enough temps and no need for that as it will toughen right up. My general experience has been this method has resulted in great meat though not as tender as I like. I don’t have the luxury of hanging anything at home so I’ve experimented with refrigerator aging with mixed results. Side note: I am always worrying about critters getting into my meat if left over night or while I am packing out. It is what it is.

I hear you. Deboning before rigor mortis AND not having the luxury to hang anything at home could be kind of a one-two punch. Considering that the three approaches to minimizing cold shortening are:

1. What I was talking about in my earlier post, i.e. Conditioning / Delayed Chilling (cooling a carcass to 10-15C / 50-60F, but not colder, before the transition into rigor mortis, and holding it there until rigor is complete)

2. Physical restraint of the muscle — essentially what is provided by leaving the muscles attached to the bones / skeleton, and further enhanced by physically suspending a carcass. Seems it's always better to suspend a carcass if you can. There's even a method used in the industry, the "tenderstretch technique", which involves hanging a carcass from the aitch bone rather than the traditional achilles tendon, which has been proven to increase tenderness in the end product even more.

This is partly why I'm reluctant to debone an elk in the field (within the first 24 hours after it died) if I can avoid it. It is nice if the muscles, when undergoing rigor, are anchored to something. But again, I acknowledge this is My Thing. I understand all the reasons for doing it and clearly the meat can still turn out good-to-great and make a lot of people happy at the dinner table.

3. Electrical stimulation — My understanding is this is what most slaughterhouses do in the interest of time. Basically zap the carcass and artificially speed it through rigor mortis before the carcass has a chance to chill below 12C.


Handy dandy graph, which is self-explanatory. It is from this paper, found on the Meat & Livestock Australia website. Again, note that 5C is 41F. Authors here and elsewhere state that less than 20% cold shortening is generally acceptable, maybe not noticeable to the consumer. But more than 20% will be quite noticeable and disagreeable. Note that it's approaching 30% at around 36F.

This is why I said in my previous post if I shot something at last light and it's due to be around freezing or colder overnight, I'll gut it but I may not *want* to skin and fully quarter an elk and hang those quarters in the breeze. I'd rather let its hide and intact body mass slow down the rate of cooling during the critical first 20 hours—in other words, let the carcass undergo a conditioning process. PLUS I like my sleep. Maybe it's all an elaborate justification to get to bed at a reasonable hour. ;)


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Alright I'll bite on this thread, but there is a lot of nuance to much of this discussion. If I may start with the info that LoH has shared since it's so scientific. I just think it needs more input.

1. The most important separation of the discussion about wild meat cooling, rigor, and cold shortening VS that of domestic beef is very important for hunters to know. There are a lot of tricks to the commercial meat industry that are innovated for the sake of efficiency, quality, preservation and presentation of red meat. Those tricks do not translate well to hunters because our harvest environments are drastically different than a tightly controlled commercial slaughter plant. Not that we should forget what we read about the meat industry, but here are some things to consider based on my PhD level understanding of real time meat preservation and mitigation strategies.

2. Conditioning and delayed chilling. This refers to the pre-harvest "condition" of the animals' hormonal state (adrenaline mainly) up to the most critical 48 hours before slaughter. For example, stressed animals result in higher final pH levels in meat (over 6.0pH is tougher and dryer than pH 5.4-5.7) Fighting, cold weather, fasting and even transit stressors (conditions immediately before death) affect the quality of our game meat. Delayed chilling is a misnomer rabbit hole not to compare between wild meat preservation and commercial standards. I'll retouch on this down the read.

3. Deboning / physical restraint of muscles prior to rigor is a big deal for meat hunters and not so big a deal for wilderness backpack hunters who enjoy wild meat. Pragmatic scenarios sometimes demand that we hunters debone a hot carcass to get it out of the wilds timely and safely. The argument of science in this topic is not arguable. Meat left of the bone through rigor mortis results in less chance of shortening (permanent muscle contraction) regardless of storage temperature. I could argue that the final pH of the meat is more important to tenderness than whether the meat was on-the-bone or deboned immediately.

4. Electrical stimulation has less to do with "speeding rigor" and more to the point of accelerating the drop in the final pH of the meat. The commercial meat industry uses electrolysis to rapidly produce a pre-rigor pH of 5.4-5.8 while the meat is cooled rapidly to 40F where it hangs for up to 14 days in a controlled setting. This does not actually speed rigor mortis (glycolysis) but rather sets the best stage within meat fibers for rigor to process. It is said to shorten the process of glycolysis but it doesn't seem to speed up the window. That window is connected to storage temperature and conditions. The warmer the storage temp the faster glycolysis completes. But, a moot point to hunters since we ain't shockin nothin out and about.

Delayed cooling
Studies have suggested that Cold shortening levels of <25% (meaning some muscle contraction but likely is not noticeable in taste quality) can occur when meat core temps drop below 50F BEFORE the final pH still above pH 6.0. This is a vital takeaway for hunters. This means if you harvest an elk and the meat temperature reaches 50F within the first 24 hours, the meat is only at a higher risk of muscle contractions that could influence tenderness but is not decided or harmed by it through our taste buds. None of that shit matters much because our ideal goal for meat quality and preservation is to chill wild meat to 40F and keep it that cool until we transport it out of the field. Storage temps and humidity control the cooling rate of wild meat, which contributes to the water content in muscles prior to, during and after rigor. Which all connects the taste to quality vs tough and chewy.

The roof of this discussion is the final pH of the meat. Temperature be damned, if the animal's meat has a final pH value of >pH 6.0 (24 hours post harvest), that meat will likely be tough and chewy regardless of aging times and preservation techniques. So we should be equally concerned about the condition of the animal's health and stress load prior to death as we are about kill site temps and time left in the field.

Given a healthy animal and one that did not suffer for an hour during the stalk and kill scenario, the most ideal target for the final pH of meat quality is pH 5.4-5.8. The best way to ensure that your final pH falls within a tasty margin is first to shoot a non-stressed animal with a double lung shot to bleed out muscles well and then to promote cooling the meat from its resting core temp of 100F at time of death down to <50F by 30-36 hours post harvest. Meat should not be allowed to freeze prior to the end of rigor (60-72 hours post death). Once meat has stiffened and relaxed indicates the end of rigor. Meat will get firm to touch near 30F but will not produce freeze crystal until meat temps are <27F based on my research. The storage temp goal is 40F until after rigor, then freezing won't hurt a bit.

Glycolysis in wild meat starts at death and extends to 24 hours post harvest. Side note: when you strip the hide off a dead animal and you see muscle twitching and firing as if still alive...that's the observable process energy of sugars converting to lactic acid in the muscles.

Resources:





I could go on and on about meat science. Hope this helpful in some way to the OG post.
 
I take care of the animal based on the circumstance. Late in the evening to dark I gut, partially skin, then open hip joints and shoulders. Prop the animal open and leave it laying on its back using logs or rocks under the hide along the spine to hold it up. Come back the next day to quarter and pack out. This is based on temperature. If it’s hot I will go ahead and quarter, pull off the rib meat, neck, the heart, and possibly the tongue. Hang on tree branches or a game pole. Come back the next day to pack out. I’m not staying out in the field to pack an animal out in the dark. If you can’t quarter at the time then definitely gut and partially skin and prop open. Here are a few pics of improperly cared animals and then some of my own.
 

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My cousin and I went through this in late Nov. I shot a cow across a canyon at 535 yards at 3:30pm for a double lung and some liver shot, in the snow with a big river at the bottom of the canyon. It was day 7 and I was tracking a heard for hours and about to turn around to meet back at a rally point when a lone cow was joining the herd at the bottom of the drainage across the canyon.

It took us 4 hours to get to it...back to the truck, load up for the negative temps, hike back down, cross the river, up the hillside. We gutted and skinned half in an hour, few hours to hike out, few hours drive back to the wall tent. Back to camp around 12:30am. Packed it out the next 2 days. We had to drop 1,000' in elevation each trip and up 500' on the other side.

The cow was very gamey because we didn't get to it fast enough and bleed it out well enough. Pretty much had to make it all into grind and cured meats. It was frozen solid the first morning back to quarter and take it down to the river and the first load out.

Lesson learned to move faster and bleed it and quarter it out no matter what. We did our best...but more urgency would have helped. My first elk. His 3rd.
 
My cousin and I went through this in late Nov. I shot a cow across a canyon at 535 yards at 3:30pm, in the snow with a big river at the bottom of the canyon. It was day 7 and I was tracking a heard for hours and about to turn around to meet back at a rally point when a lone cow was joining the herd at the bottom of the drainage across the canyon.

It took us 4 hours to get to it...back to the truck, load up for the negative temps, hike back down, cross the river, up the hillside. We gutted and skinned half in an hour, few hours to hike out, few hours drive back to the wall tent. Back to camp around 12:30am. Packed it out the next 2 days. We had to drop 1,000' in elevation each trip and up 500' on the other side.

The cow was very gamey because we didn't get to it fast enough and bleed it out well enough. Pretty much had to make it all into grind and cured meats. It was frozen solid the first morning back to quarter and take it down to the river and the first load out.

Lesson learned to move faster and bleed it and quarter it out no matter what. We did our best...but more urgency would have helped. My first elk. His 3rd.
How do you "bleed out" a dead animal?
 
How do you "bleed out" a dead animal?
3-4" gash at the jugular. This elk sat for 4 hours before we started and we should have removed the head, or gashed it to drain down hill. It had full rigamortis and not a lot of blood in the chest cavity. The last 30-40 or so blacktail deer we shot we would have them gutted, skinned and the head off and hanging in less than 2 hours and we would hang it for 3 days then butcher. The elk also froze fast. It was below zero when we were working.

I talked with a few uncles and cousins and together we take about 15 big game animals a year and we all believe that was the issue. My butcher today said that I didn't get the blood out of the system fast enough. When I would thaw out a stake there was a ton of blood in the vacuum bag. It was bad. So I grinded up 50% of it and sent the rest to be cured and smoked at my butchers today. I do all my own butchering outside of specialty snack sticks, summer sausage etc.
 
3-4" gash at the jugular. This elk sat for 4 hours before we started and we should have removed the head, or gashed it to drain down hill. It had full rigamortis and not a lot of blood in the chest cavity. The last 30-40 or so blacktail deer we shot we would have them gutted, skinned and the head off and hanging in less than 2 hours and we would hang it for 3 days then butcher. The elk also froze fast. It was below zero when we were working.

I talked with a few uncles and cousins and together we take about 15 big game animals a year and we all believe that was the issue. My butcher today said that I didn't get the blood out of the system fast enough. When I would thaw out a stake there was a ton of blood in the vacuum bag. It was bad. So I grinded up 50% of it and sent the rest to be cured and smoked at my butchers today. I do all my own butchering outside of specialty snack sticks, summer sausage etc.
The question was mostly rhetorical. There is no blood in the muscle tissue of a mammal. There is also no "bleeding" if the heart isn't pumping.

There is no blood in a steak in a vacuum bag. That's myoglobin.

Your issue very likely was due to the muscles freezing prior to rigor mortis or some strenuous activity the cow did prior to dying but it most certainly had nothing to do with your failure to drain blood from an artery. You want to allow the full rigor mortis process to happen above freezing.
 
The question was mostly rhetorical. There is no blood in the muscle tissue of a mammal. There is also no "bleeding" if the heart isn't pumping.

There is no blood in a steak in a vacuum bag. That's myoglobin.

Your issue very likely was due to the muscles freezing prior to rigor mortis or some strenuous activity the cow did prior to dying but it most certainly had nothing to do with your failure to drain blood from an artery. You want to allow the full rigor mortis process to happen above freezing.
Well then myoglobin tastes terrible and the steaks were full of it when I tawed them.

My uncles have killed about 40-50 elk in this unit the last 40 years in the snow. They felt it was because we didn't break it down fast enough (fully skinned) and get the blood out (myoglobin), so did the butcher who does 1,500 deer a year.

I could only come up with it froze right away, the tissue never broke down, and we didn't skin it all and quarter it. That was the only items that were different from the past. Even when I got it home and butcher it a few days later the meat at the bone was frozen...ice crystals.

So what do you do in this situation? It would have been tag soup if not...and I have salvaged the meat with heavy seasoning, etc...
 
Well then myoglobin tastes terrible and the steaks were full of it when I tawed them.

My uncles have killed about 40-50 elk in this unit the last 40 years in the snow. They felt it was because we didn't break it down fast enough (fully skinned) and get the blood out (myoglobin), so did the butcher who does 1,500 deer a year.

I could only come up with it froze right away, the tissue never broke down, and we didn't skin it all and quarter it. That was the only items that were different from the past. Even when I got it home and butcher it a few days later the meat at the bone was frozen...ice crystals.

So what do you do in this situation? It would have been tag soup if not...and I have salvaged the meat with heavy seasoning, etc...
LOL. If your meat is red, like it should be, it has myoglobin in it. You know, like that steak you buy at the store or at the steakhouse that tastes amazing?

The freezing screwed you. You can't just let the meat all freeze fast like that. Those fast forming ice crystals tore and destroyed the muscle fibers and didn't allow them to hold the moisture inside the meat.

Someone else will have to give advice. I don't hunt when it's that cold. I get my freezer stocked before then.

And as said above, your butcher might be 3rd generation, but he knows nothing about biology and meat care. This is proven by his comments about "getting the blood out."

Nobody is trying to argue with you. These are facts and understanding them will allow you to get great meat from your next elk.
 
My cousin and I went through this in late Nov. I shot a cow across a canyon at 535 yards at 3:30pm for a double lung and some liver shot, in the snow with a big river at the bottom of the canyon. It was day 7 and I was tracking a heard for hours and about to turn around to meet back at a rally point when a lone cow was joining the herd at the bottom of the drainage across the canyon.

It took us 4 hours to get to it...back to the truck, load up for the negative temps, hike back down, cross the river, up the hillside. We gutted and skinned half in an hour, few hours to hike out, few hours drive back to the wall tent. Back to camp around 12:30am. Packed it out the next 2 days. We had to drop 1,000' in elevation each trip and up 500' on the other side.

The cow was very gamey because we didn't get to it fast enough and bleed it out well enough. Pretty much had to make it all into grind and cured meats. It was frozen solid the first morning back to quarter and take it down to the river and the first load out.

Lesson learned to move faster and bleed it and quarter it out no matter what. We did our best...but more urgency would have helped. My first elk. His 3rd.
Ummm, not sure I follow. Was this a back/spine shot? If not, all animals bleed out, whether in chest cavity, abdominal cavity or external blood loss
 
Say you put an elk down as the sun was setting.. shot was fatal. If you were unable to break down the animal until the morning, how cold would it have to be for all the meat to still be good by the next morning?

Say you were able to gut the animal but needed to wait until first light to break it down?
Too many variables. Agree with what others have said, bone sour is a real thing with elk, not so much deer. If it's freezing at night and not above 45 during the day, if you gut, open up neck and get animal/hind quarters over on a log (so hind Q is not resting on warm ground) it will cool down pretty good. But honestly it's about as much work to just get the Qs off. I have had situations where the animal died in such a tough position we gutted just to be able to move it around.....If it's not getting under 40 degrees, go straight to gutless method AND hide off. We have walked away from many elk in the evening due to warm weather in hell holes. If you are hunting up to dark, be prep for long evening/night. Also as others have said to quickly get the 4 Q off and open up neck you can at least be assured you'll save meat doesnt take that long. Total animal breakdown, debone, game bags, cape/skin skull does take a long time pending if solo or not
 
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