Suppressors - first round impact shift

[hibernation]

Got my first suppressor recently, Diligent Defense Enticer LTi, direct threaded on a Weatherby Vanguard (Howa 1500) 18" 7mm-08 for hunting. Seems to group fine for a light hunting rifle with Barnes 120 TTSX (10 shot group ~1.5 MOA off sandbags), no stringing or anything weird, but I noticed yesterday that the first cold round through the suppressor impacts 2" high at 100 yards. Every other round after groups normally to the zero POI, but if I leave the bolt open and let it cool / air out, the next round impacts 2" high again. Then returns to center.

Repeated this same pattern three times in a row: cold shot hits 2" above my aim point, next shot is right within the normal POI and expected group size.

To be clear, this isn't a POI shift from unsuppressed to suppressed, or from removing/reattaching the suppressor. It seems to just be the first round through a cold suppressor impacting 2 MOA high, then the POI immediately returns to my zero and shoots normally as long as I continue firing at a reasonable pace for a thin barreled hunting rifle. Not letting it get super hot, but not letting it fully cool either.

Anyone else run into this? Is this a thing with certain suppressors and not others? Related to first round pop? Found an older thread on snipershide of a similar situation.

Range Report - COLD BORE WITH SUPPRESSOR

So i am having trouble with my cold bore shot having a different POI then the rest of my shots. Desert tech a2 with a 16” 6.5x47 lapua barrel and a varminter 3.0 30 cal can. It does the same thing with my 18” 300win mag barrel also. First shot is always about 1” low and 1” right with both...

www.snipershide.com

 

[Lawnboi]

Probably more related to your barrel than the suppressor. I’m not sure how DD designs their cans but if this was an issue you would likely see more.

I have no shift on my rifles for first round, though they are often around 15- 20fps slower. Whether that’s the can being filled with air, or the extra friction of the carbon in the bore oxidizing I don’t know.

 

[hibernation]

Could be, I need to check that. I haven't really shot this rifle much without the suppressor. If it was a barrel issue, would you expect the POI to keep moving as the barrel continues to heat? I've read the cold bore vs hot thread, not sure where the vanguard/howa barrels fall in terms of proper stress relief.

I'll check that on the next range trip, shoot it unsuppressed for a few to see if the POI shifts as it warms up, then maybe throw the cold suppressor onto a hot barrel and see where that lands.

Also need to put it on another rifle and see what happens. Got a hunt coming up real soon and I thought this rifle was all set, gotta get this sorted out.

 

[Whistlepigs]

I have this same issue with a Badrock South Fork. First round suppressed is always about 1.5" right. Same can on other rifles are fine, just this one.

 

[jhoff04]

I just listened to a recent meateater podcast on suppressors and this exact problem was brought up during a discussion. Sounded like it was a known problem with older designs but apparently with how most suppressors are designed today, you shouldn't see this issue?

 

[hibernation]

I have this same issue with a Badrock South Fork. First round suppressed is always about 1.5" right. Same can on other rifles are fine, just this one.

So just that one combo of suppressor and rifle? What suppressor was it?

 

[TaperPin]

Got my first suppressor recently, Diligent Defense Enticer LTi, direct threaded on a Weatherby Vanguard (Howa 1500) 18" 7mm-08 for hunting. Seems to group fine for a light hunting rifle with Barnes 120 TTSX (10 shot group ~1.5 MOA off sandbags), no stringing or anything weird, but I noticed yesterday that the first cold round through the suppressor impacts 2" high at 100 yards. Every other round after groups normally to the zero POI, but if I leave the bolt open and let it cool / air out, the next round impacts 2" high again. Then returns to center.

Repeated this same pattern three times in a row: cold shot hits 2" above my aim point, next shot is right within the normal POI and expected group size.

To be clear, this isn't a POI shift from unsuppressed to suppressed, or from removing/reattaching the suppressor. It seems to just be the first round through a cold suppressor impacting 2 MOA high, then the POI immediately returns to my zero and shoots normally as long as I continue firing at a reasonable pace for a thin barreled hunting rifle. Not letting it get super hot, but not letting it fully cool either.

Anyone else run into this? Is this a thing with certain suppressors and not others? Related to first round pop? Found an older thread on snipershide of a similar situation.

Range Report - COLD BORE WITH SUPPRESSOR

So i am having trouble with my cold bore shot having a different POI then the rest of my shots. Desert tech a2 with a 16” 6.5x47 lapua barrel and a varminter 3.0 30 cal can. It does the same thing with my 18” 300win mag barrel also. First shot is always about 1” low and 1” right with both...

www.snipershide.com

Wow - 2 MOA is a lot. The first thing that came to mind is a very slight baffle strike and the can is lucky enough to expand with heat away from the bullet.

It’s a bummer to have to sort it out, but I’ll be excited to hear what the fix is since it’s such a dramatic problem.

 

[Formidilosus]

Got my first suppressor recently, Diligent Defense Enticer LTi, direct threaded on a Weatherby Vanguard (Howa 1500) 18" 7mm-08 for hunting. Seems to group fine for a light hunting rifle with Barnes 120 TTSX (10 shot group ~1.5 MOA off sandbags), no stringing or anything weird, but I noticed yesterday that the first cold round through the suppressor impacts 2" high at 100 yards. Every other round after groups normally to the zero POI, but if I leave the bolt open and let it cool / air out, the next round impacts 2" high again. Then returns to center.

Repeated this same pattern three times in a row: cold shot hits 2" above my aim point, next shot is right within the normal POI and expected group size.

To be clear, this isn't a POI shift from unsuppressed to suppressed, or from removing/reattaching the suppressor. It seems to just be the first round through a cold suppressor impacting 2 MOA high, then the POI immediately returns to my zero and shoots normally as long as I continue firing at a reasonable pace for a thin barreled hunting rifle. Not letting it get super hot, but not letting it fully cool either.

Anyone else run into this? Is this a thing with certain suppressors and not others? Related to first round pop? Found an older thread on snipershide of a similar situation.

Range Report - COLD BORE WITH SUPPRESSOR

So i am having trouble with my cold bore shot having a different POI then the rest of my shots. Desert tech a2 with a 16” 6.5x47 lapua barrel and a varminter 3.0 30 cal can. It does the same thing with my 18” 300win mag barrel also. First shot is always about 1” low and 1” right with both...

www.snipershide.com

I have 3x DD cans that cause multiple 1 to 1.3 MOA (10 rounds) rifles to be 2.5-4 MOA guns. Random POI shifts, stringing, etc.


Top 3 groups are CGS can, bottom is DD.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

I have 3x DD cans that cause multiple 1 to 1.3 MOA (10 rounds) rifles to be 2.5-4 MOA guns. Random POI shifts, stringing, etc.

With all the shooting you do have you discussed it with them and/or identified anything? Do these cans cause issues on every rifle or just some so its sorta a crap shoot until the combo is tested?

This is the first I caught wind of this issue, I got a DD wolf hunter in jail right now so its a concerning thing to hear.

 

[Formidilosus]

With all the shooting you do have you discussed it with them and/or identified anything? Do these cans cause issues on every rifle or just some so its sorta a crap shoot until the combo is tested?

2x makes every rifle tried shoot terrible. 1x makes every rifle but one shoot badly. We have not worked through it all yet.

This is the first I caught wind of this issue, I got a DD wolf hunter in jail right now so its a concerning thing to hear.

I have had a single can, not like a single barrel or muzzle device once or twice. I have never seen multiple cans make multiple rifles shoot poorly.

 

[fmyth]

Got my first suppressor recently, Diligent Defense Enticer LTi, direct threaded on a Weatherby Vanguard (Howa 1500) 18" 7mm-08 for hunting. Seems to group fine for a light hunting rifle with Barnes 120 TTSX (10 shot group ~1.5 MOA off sandbags), no stringing or anything weird, but I noticed yesterday that the first cold round through the suppressor impacts 2" high at 100 yards. Every other round after groups normally to the zero POI, but if I leave the bolt open and let it cool / air out, the next round impacts 2" high again. Then returns to center.

Repeated this same pattern three times in a row: cold shot hits 2" above my aim point, next shot is right within the normal POI and expected group size.

To be clear, this isn't a POI shift from unsuppressed to suppressed, or from removing/reattaching the suppressor. It seems to just be the first round through a cold suppressor impacting 2 MOA high, then the POI immediately returns to my zero and shoots normally as long as I continue firing at a reasonable pace for a thin barreled hunting rifle. Not letting it get super hot, but not letting it fully cool either.

Anyone else run into this? Is this a thing with certain suppressors and not others? Related to first round pop? Found an older thread on snipershide of a similar situation.

Range Report - COLD BORE WITH SUPPRESSOR

So i am having trouble with my cold bore shot having a different POI then the rest of my shots. Desert tech a2 with a 16” 6.5x47 lapua barrel and a varminter 3.0 30 cal can. It does the same thing with my 18” 300win mag barrel also. First shot is always about 1” low and 1” right with both...

www.snipershide.com

I guess the first shot is now a "warning shot" just to give them a fair chance. Hope you get this figured out. After waiting and paying out the $$$$ for the suppressor and stamp etc I'd be pissed. Have not had this issue with my J&K 155 or my Silencerco Harvester. Hope you get this resolved.

 

[Duh]

I just had this same thing happen today. Seekins 6 creed shooting a 80gr eldvt with a tabac Ultra 9. This has been a decent load so far (1-1.5 in groups). Velocity has all been under 20fps for extreme spread.

I’ve only had this issue with this gun and bullet combo so far.


The first shot was the one on the top left. Shot 4 more then let the barre cool. After about 5 minutes the first shot was the one on the top right. Then the next 3 settled around the same elevation.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

2x makes every rifle tried shoot terrible. 1x makes every rifle but one shoot badly. We have not worked through it all yet.

I have had a single can, not like a single barrel or muzzle device once or twice. I have never seen multiple cans make multiple rifles shoot poorly.

Do all your DD cans have issues? IE do you have more than 3? IIRC Ryan blew up a DD can with a big magnum (which they fixed) does he have any issues with group sizes?

 

[Formidilosus]

Do all your DD cans have issues? IE do you have more than 3? IIRC Ryan blew up a DD can with a big magnum (which they fixed) does he have any issues with group sizes?

No. I think it’s 4 out of 9 (?).

 

[hibernation]

Man, this is not what I want to hear but good info regardless. I'll do some more shooting and see if I can find a solution, just frustrated burning money, time, and ammo troubleshooting.

Form, what's your recommendation for a more reliable/consistent hunting suppressor? Weighted heavily toward sound reduction, working around existing hearing damage and tinnitus. Trying to keep good communication with my hunting partner while avoiding making anything worse.

 

[hibernation]

I just had this same thing happen today. Seekins 6 creed shooting a 80gr eldvt with a tabac Ultra 9. This has been a decent load so far (1-1.5 in groups). Velocity has all been under 20fps for extreme spread.

I’ve only had this issue with this gun and bullet combo so far.
View attachment 772565

The first shot was the one on the top left. Shot 4 more then let the barre cool. After about 5 minutes the first shot was the one on the top right. Then the next 3 settled around the same elevation.

That's exactly what my target looked like, a decent group on the center with two impacts 2 MOA above it.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

No. I think it’s 4 out of 9 (?).

fingers crossed I guess...

 

[justin davis]

I haven’t ever seen this issue with my Thunderbeast cans

 

[ztc92]

Thought I would add to the cofusion. I have a Harvester Evo, never seen any POI shifts on 3 guns when direct threading it (Tikka 223 and two Tikka 6.5 Creedmores). I recently added the deadair Xeno system and on my most recent range session I had no issues with the .223 (shot great as always) but did see first round was off by about 1-2” at 100 yards with multiple loads in both my 6.5’s. I’ve attached some targets, all the first rounds are pretty obvious but for clarify, I put a “1” next to the first round that is different in each group. FYI, some groups aren’t centered on target as I was adjusting zero for hunting loads with each group.

I discussed it with a friend who shots way more than me and we both question if it is suppressor or a cold shooter as sometimes I will not build a great position for my first shot and then fix it for shots 2-10. I did have a few groups that didn’t have this issue so perhaps it’s me? Interesting that the POI shift was consistent for each load/rifle when it did happen though.

I don’t think it’s the suppressor as I had no issues before adding the Xeno system. I can’t for the life of me think how adding a muzzle device and a new adapter to the suppressor would cause this.

 

[HandgunHTR]

I haven’t ever seen this issue with my Thunderbeast cans

I haven't seen it with my SilencerCo, Dead Air, or Rugged suppressors either.