Support for 6.8 western?

[wartak]

For you goofballs arguing over sectional density.. Its mass/diameter^2. So its just weight and caliber.. length isn't in the calc.

@wartak, you have pics of the moose scapula stopping ELDx? Like they failed to penetrate the scapula?

I've seen ELDx make explosive entry wounds but the wound has always been deep enough to do the job.

No sir I do not. Your going to have to trust me or don't on this one. All I know is one of my buddies hit 3 times in the shoulder and the moose acted like nothing happened so another buddy finished it off with the 300wm.
They were all discussed with the 6.5 prc saying it's inadequate, I tried to reassure them it was the bullet not the caliber. There was no sign of the bullets in the chest cavity only a severely beat up shoulder quarter.

 

[Leaf Litter]

Yes they do, because copper bullets tend to be longer to achieve the same weight. At the least their SD would be identical if weight and diameter are the same.

I think you are confused on what sectonal density means. The only two factors in sectional density are bullet weight and bullet diameter. Length of the bullet and terminal ballistics have NOTHING to do with sectional density, they're completely separate metrics.

I fully understand what you're attempting to describe, just don't conflate different metrics, it muddies the water.

 

[kevingm1987]

Well.. I have witnessed it in 6.5 prc explode on a moose scapula in 3 consecutive shots at around 150 yards.. that's all I have to say. Disappointing is an understatement.

Did the moose die? Or walk off back in the woods to hang out with his moose friends?

 

[kevingm1987]

No sir I do not. Your going to have to trust me or don't on this one. All I know is one of my buddies hit 3 times in the shoulder and the moose acted like nothing happened so another buddy finished it off with the 300wm.
They were all discussed with the 6.5 prc saying it's inadequate, I tried to reassure them it was the bullet not the caliber. There was no sign of the bullets in the chest cavity only a severely beat up shoulder quarter.

So you were there or this is what your buddy told you?

 

[wartak]

Did the moose die? Or walk off back in the woods to hang out with his moose friends?

It died.. was finished off with the 300 wm as stated in my previous response..
All I could figure is maybe the 140ish grain eldx didn't have enough mass to break the shoulder? It's a mystery to me I would never have guessed it to happen. But I've seen similar scenarios with varmit bullets on deer from knotheads that think a bullet is a bullet and that's it.
Also seen lots of damaged meat with ELD-x it only has credibility imho at longer ranges.. say maybe 400 yards and above.

 

[Formidilosus]

It died.. was finished off with the 300 wm as stated in my previous response..
All I could figure is maybe the 140ish grain eldx didn't have enough mass to break the shoulder? It's a mystery to me I would never have guessed it to happen. But I've seen similar scenarios with varmit bullets on deer from knotheads that think a bullet is a bullet and that's it.
Also seen lots of damaged meat with ELD-x it only has credibility imho at longer ranges.. say maybe 400 yards and above.

Those bulletproof moose “shoulders” will get you every time-

 

[wartak]

So you were there or this is what your buddy

Those bulletproof moose “shoulders” will get you every time-

View attachment 735458

View attachment 735459

View attachment 735460

Yeah you would think a 22 would blow through that no problem. However I think it's more to do with tissue mass in that area maybe? I don't know, more questions than answers here

 

[kevingm1987]

Yeah you would think a 22 would blow through that no problem. However I think it's more to do with tissue mass in that area maybe? I don't know, more questions than answers here

@Formidilosus can talk to tissue mass at that area as well.

Personally, it sounds like a dead moose standing. Big animals can "eat" some lead but still take time to die. I bet the 6.5prc killed the moose but he was just standing there waiting to die and someone said he hasn't dropped yet, shoot him with the .300wm.

We double lunged a moose with a .308 and it kept walking for 100yds or so and my partner had missed the follow up shot. We "finished" with a .300wm because we didn't want it to walk away any further, not because it wasn't going to die.

 

[Formidilosus]

Yeah you would think a 22 would blow through that no problem. However I think it's more to do with tissue mass in that area maybe? I don't know, more questions than answers here

That was a 223 that “blew through” that moose scapula.

Directly through the scapula ridge too.


It then penetrated through a rib, both lungs, and was on the opposite side skin.

A second shot totally separated the scapula at the humerus/scapula joint, penetrated through a rib, the heart, another rib and caught in the offside.





Moose shoulders didn’t stop three 143gr ELD-X’s.

 

[wartak]

That was a 223 that “blew through” that moose scapula.

Directly through the scapula ridge too.
View attachment 735464

It then penetrated through a rib, both lungs, and was on the opposite side skin.

A second shot totally separated the scapula at the humerus/scapula joint, penetrated through a rib, the heart, another rib and caught in the offside.
View attachment 735470




Moose shoulders didn’t stop three 143gr ELD-X’s.

I would think you would be right but none the less it happened..
Which is all besides the point that I made in my post about barnes needing to get on board already with the 6.8 western.
I would think that they would have significant pull with brass suppliers.

 

[wartak]

@Formidilosus can talk to tissue mass at that area as well.

Personally, it sounds like a dead moose standing. Big animals can "eat" some lead but still take time to die. I bet the 6.5prc killed the moose but he was just standing there waiting to die and someone said he hasn't dropped yet, shoot him with the .300wm.

We double lunged a moose with a .308 and it kept walking for 100yds or so and my partner had missed the follow up shot. We "finished" with a .300wm because we didn't want it to walk away any further, not because it wasn't going to die.

I wonder if the bullet missed the scapula? Maybe it just blew apart in the lungs and we assumed it was the 300 that killed it? There was no sign of the eldx.. maybe all the shrapnel came.out with the lungs upon gutting?

 

[wartak]

So you were there or this is what your buddy told you?

I was there but in a different hunting party.. I didn't witness the trigger pull only saw the moose.

 

[kevingm1987]

I wonder if the bullet missed the scapula? Maybe it just blew apart in the lungs and we assumed it was the 300 that killed it? There was no sign of the eldx.. maybe all the shrapnel came.out with the lungs upon gutting?

I assume this is the case. I think everything happens fast and the moose was likely dying, but just reaction says to shoot it again if its not flopped over.

Depending on distance of the shot, I would assume shot 1,2,or 3 would of killed the moose. Entering at the front shoulder opens up to most of the vitals right behind there. 1 of 3, if not all 3, would of penetrated deep enough to disrupt some of the good stuff to kill the moose.

 

[wartak]

I assume this is the case. I think everything happens fast and the moose was likely dying, but just reaction says to shoot it again if its not flopped over.

Depending on distance of the shot, I would assume shot 1,2,or 3 would of killed the moose. Entering at the front shoulder opens up to most of the vitals right behind there. 1 of 3, if not all 3, would of penetrated deep enough to disrupt some of the good stuff to kill the moose.

150 yards max

 

[WCB]

Wut?

He circles single section state ground pivots in Montana and herd shoots at elk with his track spikes on to race the other bums.

 

[LongWayAround]

Well.. I have witnessed it in 6.5 prc explode on a moose scapula in 3 consecutive shots at around 150 yards.. that's all I have to say. Disappointing is an understatement.

I was there but in a different hunting party.. I didn't witness the trigger pull only saw the moose.

I'm not sure you understand what it means to "witness" an event.

 

[wartak]

I'm not sure you understand what it means to "witness" an event.

Yeah poor choice of words, either way rhe results were the same.

 

[RobHazmat89]

I think you are confused on what sectonal density means. The only two factors in sectional density are bullet weight and bullet diameter. Length of the bullet and terminal ballistics have NOTHING to do with sectional density, they're completely separate metrics.

I fully understand what you're attempting to describe, just don't conflate different metrics, it muddies the water.

Then the second part of what I said was correct. If they weigh the same and are the same caliber then they would have identical sectional densities. Make sure you correct the other guy as well

 

[wartak]

Did he say SD has nothing to do with terminal performance of a bullet? That's not true.

 

[wartak]

Here is a good article that relates to what we are discussing.
ELD-X = cheasy bullet
all jokes aside i dont like the fact that it is t designed for good penetration like on a quartering away shot.

What You've Been Told About a Bullet's Sectional Density and Penetration Is Wrong

If, like many shooters, you believe the sectional density on an unfired bullet is a good indicator of penetration, then you need to read this.

www.fieldandstream.com