Struggling to see the point of 6.5's

[49ereric]

Sorry but in my world velocity equals bloodshot and loss of meat. In all these comments I don't think there was more than one comment on that. All I saw was a pleading for more velocity. Without consideration of bullet performance and meat recover this is a discussion focussed for shooters not hunters. Now - continue the insanity.

^^^^

 

[Stinky Coyote]

BC and SD. What would we discuss if it weren't for BC and SD? Along with velocity, BC and SD numbers get played like a trump card in ballistics discussions. I suspect it's mostly a preoccupation with inconsequential increments.

Because don't ballistic charts often times become just a wish list as soon as a shooter stands up? I mean, get off the bench and away from measured distances and chronographs and gel penetration tests and is there one shooter in a thousand that can make incremental "improvements" in BC and SD really mean something useful in most field situations? Maybe there is and I just haven't met him yet and had to come to this forum to find him.

I'm not saying ballistic improvements are not real and that they never mean anything - I'm shooting a .270 instead of a .30-30, so obviously I must think the ballistic difference between those two is important in most situations at least most of the time. But is the difference in practical field performance between, say, a 6.5 CM and a .270 as great as the difference in practical field performance difference between a .30-30 and a .270? Perhaps it is and I'm just washed up, but the touted improvements of recent years seem to amount to a lot of tinkering on the margins to me.

6.5 might be more efficient given a short case and less powder, but the .270 is not a hard kicking rifle. I am not convinced that the incremental benefits of the 6.5 over the .270 is enough for me go buy a new rifle and reloading dies. I am also not convinced any big game animal in the lower 48 will be able to tell difference. This is probably the best article I have seen comparing the two cartridges:

https://www.ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/6-5-creedmoor-versus-270-winchester

So let’s wrap up the 270 vs 6.5 cm thing here. Agree that in field on game performance you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference and neither would animals. Both amazing choices for all round North American big game rifles. But here’s why the 21st century and ‘bc/sd’ are better than just marketing lol.

1. Recoil, 11-12 ft/lbs vs 16-17 ft/lbs running 140’s in an 8.5 lb rifle. So same impact velocity at 600 yards with higher sd and 27% less recoil is a thing. Military learned 15 ft/lbs a threshold limit for many over x amount of rounds and crosses over as a good rule of thumb for us regular folks also. Pretty common knowledge that closer to 10 ft/lbs you get the more people shoot them better.

2. Short action vs long action. To do the above in a short action rifle is a substantial thing in platforms and magazines.

3. And future looking on factory ammo considering popularity for target sports (which the 270 is never chosen for) then the 6.5 is hands down the top choice for anyone looking to get into the game now. Resale is a thing. Factory support and future factory support is a thing.

For reloaders a thing too? Nice to find common and available quality brass, bullets, and components?

Gotta get off these marketing arguments also. The efficiency that comes with high bc/sd let’s you do significantly more for the powder burned. Or do the same with significantly less powder burned.

I don’t even really like the 6.5 CM (man bun) but as a numbers objective data miner type I can easily see why it is what is and I definitely lean all sorts of people to its direction. The marketing or the old guys typical reactions to anything new doesn’t cloud my perspectives.

 

[3325]

So let’s wrap up the 270 vs 6.5 cm thing here…….

Oh, not likely. But I still appreciate your response.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Sorry but in my world velocity equals bloodshot and loss of meat. In all these comments I don't think there was more than one comment on that. All I saw was a pleading for more velocity. Without consideration of bullet performance and meat recover this is a discussion focussed for shooters not hunters. Now - continue the insanity.

With frangible bullets, this is on the money. Mono's or bonded, not so much meat loss.

Entry and exit, .358 200 gr TTSX from my 35 Whelen AI on a Whitetail buck, 171 yds. 2940 fps mv. Slightly quartering away. Lungs chunked into pieces. On the exit hole you can see edible meat comes right up to the edge of the hole.

Entry top pic, exit bottom pic.

 

[Kimber7man]

I love a good blondes vs brunettes, coke vs Pepsi debate. I just want to say that before we got to 20 pages.

PS - brunettes and Pepsi, everyday and twice on Sunday, unless there is bourbon involved, in which case blondes and coke will do just fine as well.

Are the blondes doing the coke??? Asking for a friend....

 

[Pony Soldier]

Excellant. This is a criticl component in choices. I load in the 2800-2900 fps and have similar results. There will be a differant result in the upper velocity zones. I have seen a buck shot ar 3100 fps with a 300 win mag (180gr) that was bloodshot from the rear quarters to the neck with a similar hit.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

Oh, not likely. But I still appreciate your response.

Maybe barrel life and the ability to get teased by your barrel chested stormy kromer wearing buddies would seal the deal?

 

[Stinky Coyote]

With frangible bullets, this is on the money. Mono's or bonded, not so much meat loss.

Entry and exit, .358 200 gr TTSX from my 35 Whelen AI on a Whitetail buck, 171 yds. 2940 fps mv. Slightly quartering away. Lungs chunked into pieces. On the exit hole you can see edible meat comes right up to the edge of the hole.

Entry top pic, exit bottom pic.View attachment 489763View attachment 489764

This gonna be beauty derail. Bullet construction is more determinant of damage not cartridge or in this threads case...bullet diameter. You can choose from a wide range, from having your critters die on the neighbours property (cough barnes) to bang flops (cough eld-m). It will be an entertaining thread, fire it up.

 

[SaveOregon]

I'm back to playing with a 6.5 CM again. Why, I don't know but I got a great deal on a PR barrel for my Savage so I figured why not. Maybe this time I'll see what all the fuss is about. Being a dedicated 7mm guy, I figured there had to be something about all these 6.5's because I keep hearing so much about them. And now that's all I can find on the shelves both in loaded ammo and in components...

anyway, after spending a few days loading and shooting I guess I just don't get it. 2700 fps. with factory 127 Barnes LRX ammo, and the same with a variety of 129-130 grain hand loads. Looking at the load data, I can't even expect much more than that from the dainty little CM.

So, I start thinking about having this barrel rechambered to 6.5 PRC. When I look up the load data for that cartridge, I'm not impressed by it either. Nor am I all that impressed with the 6.5-284 that is supposed to be such a great "long range" cartridge (although I guess the PRC is supposed to replace it?). So what gives?

I learned a while back that the larger the bore for the case, the faster you can push a bullet from it. So trying to push 140's out of a 6.5 bore at 2800 is darn tough while it is routine out of 7mm's and pedestrian out of .308 bores. Sure, you give up BC (in the case of the .308 at least) but you're also pushing it 200 fps faster from the same case.

All this has me struggling to decide what to do with this Proof Research 6.5 CM barrel. Sure, there is a whole shelf full of factory ammo for it in every store, but it does nothing my 7mm-08's or .284 win's didn't do better as far as I can tell.

I mean, the recoil is a hair less but not enough less to make me reach for it over my 7mm-08 or .308.

What am I missing?

There is nothing new under the sun. I wonder which new caliber will replace the little Creedmoor round as the greatest breakthrough in the history of rifle cartridges? Maybe popular opinion will embrace something that hits harder than a bb gun. I had a 700 375 H&H that I used for everything hunting wise. Ammo went up, and I just went back to my .308 win 1500 Howa that to me feels like a compromise. I just couldn't really see myself making use of a little 6.5 as I don't care about punching paper and I can probably do that as good as most of the guys I have encountered endlessly blabbing about a cartridge that is basically a 7mm 08.

 

[fwafwow]

 

[mt100gr.]

^^^^^this!!!!! Love it!

 

[cmahoney]

View attachment 489791

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Pdzoller]

Love seeing all those hating on the 6.5’s but showing love for the 7/08 .308 and .270.

Wonder if their grandparents did the same thing for the 06?

Not as concerned about bullet construction and diameter, as shot placement and shooter confidence is far more important. I’ve seen more “bang flops” from a .22lr than any cartridge mentioned. Just saying.

 

[Macintosh]

The ORIGINAL POST specified mono bullets.

OP is handloading, but I shoot factory only. My 6.5cm is barely getting 2700fps with factory 120gr trophy copper. Compare that to my 270 that pushes a 130gr bullet over 3000fps. Yes, recoil is more, but for a hunting rifle that is literally the same thing as my smaller- cartridge practice rifle, and that will therefore be shot only a relative handful of times at game and in practice, they are both extremely tolerable. Depending on what impact velocity I use as a minimum for reliable expansion, the 270 has 100+ yards further effective range, and it’s not even approaching what people would consider “long range”. And, for me this is 100% about minimizing meat loss. The math may be very different handloading, its very different with a lead bullet, with different priorities, there are some (mythical unavaialable for purchase) factory offerings that may do better, etc. but to me 100 yards of effective range with available ammo, that is well within my ability level to put it on target, is not a “negligible difference”, nor is more-reliable expansion of that copper bullet by virtue of higher impact velocity at typical ranges. So I agree, FOR FACTORY-LOADED COPPER BULLETS, 6.5cm seems anemic to me.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Excellant. This is a criticl component in choices. I load in the 2800-2900 fps and have similar results. There will be a differant result in the upper velocity zones. I have seen a buck shot ar 3100 fps with a 300 win mag (180gr) that was bloodshot from the rear quarters to the neck with a similar hit.

Thanks for the info on your experience.

Was your bloodshot deer taken with a mono? I would gather not?

Years ago I sent a 180 XBT from my 300 Win mag into the sternum on a mature mule deer buck hard quartering to me at 125 yds, exited behind the ribs at the front of the opposite rear quarter. Relatively speaking there was not a lot of meat loss on it the impact area and nothing lost around the exit.

By the same token, sent a 150 Nosler ballistic tip (before the Accubond existed) into an identical shot on an antelope buck from a 7mm STW at similar impact velocity. Blew a volleyball size hole on entrance, no exit and bloodshot wrapped around into the front quarters.

Apologies for a contribution to the derail, but whether it's a 6.5 or anything else, construction is everything.

 

[3325]

This gonna be beauty derail. Bullet construction is more determinant of damage not cartridge or in this threads case...bullet diameter. You can choose from a wide range, from having your critters die on the neighbours property (cough barnes) to bang flops (cough eld-m). It will be an entertaining thread, fire it up.

Barnes? ELD? Given my previous comments, would you really expect anything besides a Partition?

 

[Stinky Coyote]

Barnes? ELD? Given my previous comments, would you really expect anything besides a Partition?

helluva bullet, giving you barnes/eld in one with 20th century bc lol, front half doing the peel back and damage, back half stays together to maintain enough sd to penetrate deep enough, you can mirror this with really high sd bullets of regular cup/core construction, I would love to love copper but yup you need more powder to offset the lack of bc/sd and they haven't seemed to figure out how to build more rapid delayed construction options for those who like things to bang flop more than not, nor has anyone figured out a tungsten or heavier non-lead internal to maximize weight either, so good point above, I must not have been paying attention to the copper thing, it's inefficient so if it's your thing then you will want more gr powder and recoil to achieve your goals

some meat is better than no meat

 

[SaveOregon]

There is nothing new under the sun. I wonder which new caliber will replace the little Creedmoor round as the greatest breakthrough in the history of rifle cartridges? Maybe popular opinion will embrace something that hits harder than a bb gun. I had a 700 375 H&H that I used for everything hunting wise. Ammo went up, and I just went back to my .308 win 1500 Howa that to me feels like a compromise. I just couldn't really see myself making use of a little 6.5 as I don't care about punching paper and I can probably do that as good as most of the guys I have encountered endlessly blabbing about a cartridge that is basically a 7mm 08.

Another observation. Many of the guys I have noticed buying 6.5 Creedmoor factory ammo are wearing those neon sneakers. I looked down at my beat up Danner boots and realized, maybe I am just a Fudd. Maybe my my old .30 cal relics do recoil too hard and I am doing permanent damage to my shoulder. Maybe I should try Tofu or the Keto diet. Maybe.

 

[nobody]

Another observation. Many of the guys I have noticed buying 6.5 Creedmoor factory ammo are wearing those neon sneakers. I looked down at my beat up Danner boots and realized, maybe I am just a Fudd. Maybe my my old .30 cal relics do recoil too hard and I am doing permanent damage to my shoulder. Maybe I should try Tofu or the Keto diet. Maybe.

Welcome to the forum, nice first impression...

 

[fwafwow]

Another observation. Many of the guys I have noticed buying 6.5 Creedmoor factory ammo are wearing those neon sneakers. I looked down at my beat up Danner boots and realized, maybe I am just a Fudd. Maybe my my old .30 cal relics do recoil too hard and I am doing permanent damage to my shoulder. Maybe I should try Tofu or the Keto diet. Maybe.

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