Struggling to see the point of 6.5's

[Newtosavage]

And if you're using the .30-'06, which came from the .30-'03 Government, you're far from a corporate tool and entering into the realms of government slave sheep that just does and says what They tell you to do and think.

LOL well I was thinking more about that and realized even the venerable '06 is a rip-off from an even better cartridge, the 7x57 Mauser which I think was gen 2 of the x57 Mauser line (iirc) anyway.

I mean, changing cartridges is traditional if nothing else.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

I'm back to playing with a 6.5 CM again. Why, I don't know but I got a great deal on a PR barrel for my Savage so I figured why not. Maybe this time I'll see what all the fuss is about. Being a dedicated 7mm guy, I figured there had to be something about all these 6.5's because I keep hearing so much about them. And now that's all I can find on the shelves both in loaded ammo and in components...

anyway, after spending a few days loading and shooting I guess I just don't get it. 2700 fps. with factory 127 Barnes LRX ammo, and the same with a variety of 129-130 grain hand loads. Looking at the load data, I can't even expect much more than that from the dainty little CM.

So, I start thinking about having this barrel rechambered to 6.5 PRC. When I look up the load data for that cartridge, I'm not impressed by it either. Nor am I all that impressed with the 6.5-284 that is supposed to be such a great "long range" cartridge (although I guess the PRC is supposed to replace it?). So what gives?

I learned a while back that the larger the bore for the case, the faster you can push a bullet from it. So trying to push 140's out of a 6.5 bore at 2800 is darn tough while it is routine out of 7mm's and pedestrian out of .308 bores. Sure, you give up BC (in the case of the .308 at least) but you're also pushing it 200 fps faster from the same case.

All this has me struggling to decide what to do with this Proof Research 6.5 CM barrel. Sure, there is a whole shelf full of factory ammo for it in every store, but it does nothing my 7mm-08's or .284 win's didn't do better as far as I can tell.

I mean, the recoil is a hair less but not enough less to make me reach for it over my 7mm-08 or .308.

What am I missing?

If you apply as many of the goals and needs across both target and hunting in a list...you'd find these 21st century 6.5's have a 21st century level versatility and efficiency to hit more, most, if not all, the check boxes in the most diverse listing you can come up with.

For specialist like yourself who does custom guns, reloading etc. It's pretty meaningless. But try to imagine how big the list is for all shooters/hunters target/hunting and their needs/wants and you start to see why. Off the shelf means anyone, off the shelf can compete target or game, 41 grains of powder and 140gr pills means pretty much everyone on recoil standpoint and still shoot well (kids/family etc.), cost, availability, goes on and on.

You do so much more with less when you have 21st century ballistics/bullets/cartridges/rifles. Versatility Max. Run impact velocity, wind drift, drops etc. of a 6.5 creed against a bunch of 20th century options and you come to see it mirrors a 300 wm running a fairly heavy modern bullet. More than half the shooters won't shoot one of those options very well. Run a 6.5 Grendel against a bunch of others you you find a 3/4 scale 308 running 168's is the mirror with 55% less recoil, or run it against a .243 moot to 300 but the higher bc bullet walks away from factory .243 after 300 yards. A 6.5 PRC runs impact velocities/drifts/drops with a 338 lapua....can't imagine that recoil difference. And you can do this all off the shelf with these three 6.5's. Wouldn't have imagined we'd see this level of versatility and capability off the shelf even 20 years ago.

We've come a long ways from 'throw a 180 out of a 30 cal and your gtg' days. I mean that still works but so not necessary, you can increase your versatility 10 fold with a modern 6.5 and reloading/custom stuff has now become optional.

 

[Pdzoller]

With excellent ammunition choices and available, ability to be ultralight for cheap, exceptional accuracy for not much money and plenty of power for medium game, I personally think it’s a great choice for under 500 yards. It has its place. Great little cartridge for a blacktail or black bears where I hunt. Is a Geo metro impressive, no, does it do what it’s intended for, yes it does and does it well.

 

[Newtosavage]

If you apply as many of the goals and needs across both target and hunting in a list...you'd find these 21st century 6.5's have a 21st century level versatility and efficiency to hit more, most, if not all, the check boxes in the most diverse listing you can come up with.

For specialist like yourself who does custom guns, reloading etc. It's pretty meaningless. But try to imagine how big the list is for all shooters/hunters target/hunting and their needs/wants and you start to see why. Off the shelf means anyone, off the shelf can compete target or game, 41 grains of powder and 140gr pills means pretty much everyone on recoil standpoint and still shoot well (kids/family etc.), cost, availability, goes on and on.

You do so much more with less when you have 21st century ballistics/bullets/cartridges/rifles. Versatility Max. Run impact velocity, wind drift, drops etc. of a 6.5 creed against a bunch of 20th century options and you come to see it mirrors a 300 wm running a fairly heavy modern bullet. More than half the shooters won't shoot one of those options very well. Run a 6.5 Grendel against a bunch of others you you find a 3/4 scale 308 running 168's is the mirror with 55% less recoil, or run it against a .243 moot to 300 but the higher bc bullet walks away from factory .243 after 300 yards. A 6.5 PRC runs impact velocities/drifts/drops with a 338 lapua....can't imagine that recoil difference. And you can do this all off the shelf with these three 6.5's. Wouldn't have imagined we'd see this level of versatility and capability off the shelf even 20 years ago.

We've come a long ways from 'throw a 180 out of a 30 cal and your gtg' days. I mean that still works but so not necessary, you can increase your versatility 10 fold with a modern 6.5 and reloading/custom stuff has now become optional.

Great stuff.

I probably should have added "for hunting" to my title.

 

[Earlierbird]

I'm back to playing with a 6.5 CM again. Why, I don't know but I got a great deal on a PR barrel for my Savage so I figured why not. Maybe this time I'll see what all the fuss is about. Being a dedicated 7mm guy, I figured there had to be something about all these 6.5's because I keep hearing so much about them. And now that's all I can find on the shelves both in loaded ammo and in components...

anyway, after spending a few days loading and shooting I guess I just don't get it. 2700 fps. with factory 127 Barnes LRX ammo, and the same with a variety of 129-130 grain hand loads. Looking at the load data, I can't even expect much more than that from the dainty little CM.

So, I start thinking about having this barrel rechambered to 6.5 PRC. When I look up the load data for that cartridge, I'm not impressed by it either. Nor am I all that impressed with the 6.5-284 that is supposed to be such a great "long range" cartridge (although I guess the PRC is supposed to replace it?). So what gives?

I learned a while back that the larger the bore for the case, the faster you can push a bullet from it. So trying to push 140's out of a 6.5 bore at 2800 is darn tough while it is routine out of 7mm's and pedestrian out of .308 bores. Sure, you give up BC (in the case of the .308 at least) but you're also pushing it 200 fps faster from the same case.

All this has me struggling to decide what to do with this Proof Research 6.5 CM barrel. Sure, there is a whole shelf full of factory ammo for it in every store, but it does nothing my 7mm-08's or .284 win's didn't do better as far as I can tell.

I mean, the recoil is a hair less but not enough less to make me reach for it over my 7mm-08 or .308.

What am I missing?

my 6.5 cm in a rem model 7 has more bark than my 7mm-08

 

[Newtosavage]

my 6.5 cm in a rem model 7 has more bark than my 7mm-08

I honestly can barely tell the difference. I'd have to step up to 160's in my 7mm-08 to tell.

 

[GAHunterJim]

I've owned 6.5s in the following cartridges, 260 Rem, 6.5 CM, 6.5-06 (wildcat), 6.5x55 and 264 Win mag. I gave up on all of them before the CM came around, it was much easier to just use my 270 Win. Then the CM circus hit town and got lots of attention from target and competition shooters as it was developed from the ground up as an accurate, easy to load, easy to shoot cartridge and does all of those things well. In addition to that, Hornady didn't waste anytime loading up accurate high BC ammo and things took off where other 6.5s have foundered in the past. The 6.5 caliber has gotten lots of attention from bullet and ammo manufacturers and that has supported the success. The 6.5 CM is a very effective short action hunting and target cartridge, the PRC is a great short-mag on par with the 270 Win and excels past the Win beyond 500 yards. I bought a CM early and lost interest, I'm building one now, Tenacity/Proof carbon pre-fit, McMillan, and should have it together by the end of January when the stock arrives. As much as I like mags like the 7mm and 300, they aren't nearly as much fun to shoot at the bench and general practice, what's the point of spending thousands on a rifle that sits in the safe.

 

[35WhelenAI]

The 6.5 Swedish Mauser from the late 19th century has gotten nostalgic press because of easy shooting and high sectional density bullets.

Do the current 6.5's have more going for them than a cartridge over a century and a quarter old, other than a marketing machine designed to convince folks to plop down dollars for them?

 

[NateTP38]

The 6.5 Swedish Mauser from the late 19th century has gotten nostalgic press because of easy shooting and high sectional density bullets.

Do the current 6.5's have more going for them than a cartridge over a century and a quarter old, other than a marketing machine designed to convince folks to plop down dollars for them?

Yes: readily available factory rifles and ammo

 

[z987k]

The 6.5 Swedish Mauser from the late 19th century has gotten nostalgic press because of easy shooting and high sectional density bullets.

Do the current 6.5's have more going for them than a cartridge over a century and a quarter old, other than a marketing machine designed to convince folks to plop down dollars for them?

Those 6.5's don't shoot high SD bullets. Their twist rate isn't fast enough to shoot them.

 

[AkRyan]

The only thing that intrigues me about the 6.5 creedmoor is loading it with Reloader 26 and seeing if I can get it to perform the way I’ve been reading some of these other people are getting it too. I’m not advocating hunting with the 147 eldm which there are several who do but if one could push that to 2800 to 2850 it would easily outperform the 7-08 and the 308 due to those crazy bc numbers that bullet has. Those velocities are pushing 6.5 prc numbers. But other than that I don’t really have the use for that cartridge along with my others. I’ve just heard that stuff is fairy dust for a creedmoor. It may not produce good accuracy though.

We can push 162g eldm/X to 2780 in 7mm08 using r17 with sub moa accuracy and that's just a slow 22" tikka barrel.

 

[Rick M.]

The 6.5 and 7 both seem to be in a nice SD sweet spot for monos. This is some stuff I was just calculating. I think the 6.5 PRC and 7 PRC will eventually cover all of my bases and have outstanding factory ammo offerings when needed.

 

[Dead eye BT]

18 pages, so far! It’s funny how some subjects get people revved up.

I only read the first 4 pages and jumped to the end. I have several 7-08s and, like the OP, love them. I bought a 6.5x55 Tikka back in 2005 and have killed truckloads of critters with that rifle (around 38 antelope and 15 +/- deer).

I bought a Tikka Superlight in 6.5 CM a year ago. I loaded up a bunch of different bullet/powder variations and tested it over the past spring and summer. For whatever reason, that Creedmoor didn’t turn my crank. I sold it.

God bless America.

P.S. I did keep the dies and brass I had for the 6.5 Creedmoor, just in case I give it another go down the road.

 

[Northman.]

Those 6.5's don't shoot high SD bullets. Their twist rate isn't fast enough to shoot them.

Not?

6,5x55 Norwegian has had 1-8 twist for 130 years..

 

[z987k]

Not?

6,5x55 Norwegian has had 1-8 twist for 130 years..

You are correct. I thought it was 1-10.

 

[whoami-72]

Idk if anyone has brought it up but suppression is better on a 6.5 creed generally speaking. When you look at 7mm rem mag and .308 win you need to use a full size can to be under 140. Most decent K size cans can be under 140 with a 6.5 creed

 

[Stinky Coyote]

The 6.5 Swedish Mauser from the late 19th century has gotten nostalgic press because of easy shooting and high sectional density bullets.

Do the current 6.5's have more going for them than a cartridge over a century and a quarter old, other than a marketing machine designed to convince folks to plop down dollars for them?

On top of the other reply of readily available factory rifles and ammo(support)...from recollection the Swede is a long action while the others are short.

If they were marketing only and didn’t offer another level of performance and versatility etc. They would die off. The 6.5 creed launched in 2008, it’s not gonna slow down anytime soon. 308 level success or beyond that for next 100 years. Doubt any factory ammo choice will outsell the creed over the next 100 years. It’s not marketing success, it walks the walk, range and hunting. The prc will be more popular for the hunters and it only launched in 2020, look how well the 21st century formula is doing already with that. The creed crosses over for range and hunting and bigger cross section of people will shoot it well due to 11-12 ft/lbs recoil energy. It is the most versatile cartridge going.

 

[ZAK13]

I personally have zero personal experience with the 6.5CM or PRC version, I prefer my 270Win that just works great for me. I don't shoot past 500 yards with it and it has a lot more "oomph" than the other 2 when it comes to game animals. I know the CM is cheap to shoot and low recoil, and the PRC is basically a standardized version of the 6.5-284, ( apparently there are a few different chamber versions and the ammo is not interchangeable ), when looking at ballistics neither one does anything special or so much better than anything else already out there.

 

[z987k]

I personally have zero personal experience with the 6.5CM or PRC version, I prefer my 270Win that just works great for me. I don't shoot past 500 yards with it and it has a lot more "oomph" than the other 2 when it comes to game animals. I know the CM is cheap to shoot and low recoil, and the PRC is basically a standardized version of the 6.5-284, ( apparently there are a few different chamber versions and the ammo is not interchangeable ), when looking at ballistics neither one does anything special or so much better than anything else already out there.

6.5x284 norma is standardized. The cases are nowhere near each other. One is based on the 284win and the other on the rcm line. Different bolt faces, different every dimension but the bullet.

Yes they're balistically identical with the slight advantage to the prc, but there are small differences that would make you chose one over the other.

 

[General RE LEE]

I prefer my 270Win that just works great for me. I don't shoot past 500 yards with it and it has a lot more "oomph" than the other 2 when it comes to game animals.

270 is one of my all time favorite cartridges, but a 143 grain ELD-X going 3050 FPS at the muzzle has a lot of “oomph” at impact.