Stone sheep beware

[alaska_bou]

A few things.

1) First, outfitters in BC can legally over sell their quota and many do it every year. In other words, if you ask an outfitter how they did last year, they may say "we had seven tags and took seven rams." One might assume that suggests a 100% success rate. What shady outfitters are not upfront with, is that they may have had to book 12 hunters to fill those seven tags.

To add to that, I know a guy who booked with a very reputable outfitting name (at the time) I will just refer to as "SSS.") This guy paid in full and was bumped to a later season date and taken into an area with zero rams. When he asked the guide to call for a relocation the guide said "I am not allowed to call because of the expensive satellite airtime." This hunter believes ,100%, that the outfitter had met the quota before he arrived, and instead of refunding or rescheduling him for the following year, he chose to send this guy on a wild goose chase in an area with no chance of success.

2) References are largely a joke when telling people to "do research." I have been in the industry for 20+ years and have seen VERY few outfitters give out a truly unbiased list of references. More often than not, "references" are just cherry-picked people who will say all the right things.

3) Had you booked your hunt through a major, well-established and reputable booking agency (not a one-man "pretend agent") you would have recourse and that agency's attorney would likely be fighting this on your behalf right now, and at no extra cost.

4) Like others have said, it isn't slander/defamation if you are stating actual facts. Not naming the outfitter is a bit of a red flag.

Lastly, some have mentioned an outfitter name on this thread that I know had major problems this past year, with sub-legal rams taken and confiscated. The outfitter said "come back free" while the concession owner and final decision maker said "hell no."

Honestly, it might be time for some to reevaluate their personal hunting goals, scratch stone sheep off the short list and use that money to experience a number of great alternative hunts with much lower risk.

 

[wildwilderness]

None of the big sheep outfits in BC are allowed to harvest 50% over their yearly quota. Pretty much all of the big sheep outfits are well over 50% success. You are talking out of your A$$. There may be a bad operator here and there but the vast majority are honest, family run businesses.

Looks like you joined today just to reply to this thread? Sounds like you are in the guide industry? most of this stuff is Operator, Owner level decisions that guides don't know much about... what's your tie to BC stones?

I'm sure most are good folk just doing their thing- unless they run 100% success they are over booking each season and potentially have more hunters than quota allows... how can this be good for the last hunter? Or do they cancel the last hunters with full refund if the quota is already filled, since they legally cannot harvest a ram?

This is why I was told directly by an Owner that the flexibility in the quota exists, to not screw the extra hunters that season, and allow the best chance for the outfitter to hit the quota.

I'm sure operators and owners in BC don't want this discussed as you have brought up. But the issue is there, and the business model does not favor the hunter...

 

[YKN]

Looks like you joined today just to reply to this thread? Sounds like you are in the guide industry? most of this stuff is Operator, Owner level decisions that guides don't know much about... what's your tie to BC stones?

I'm sure most are good folk just doing their thing- unless they run 100% success they are over booking each season and potentially have more hunters than quota allows... how can this be good for the last hunter? Or do they cancel the last hunters with full refund if the quota is already filled, since they legally cannot harvest a ram?

This is why I was told directly by an Owner that the flexibility in the quota exists, to not screw the extra hunters that season, and allow the best chance for the outfitter to hit the quota.

I'm sure operators and owners in BC don't want this discussed as you have brought up. But the issue is there, and the business model does not favor the hunter...

I don't live in BC but I have family in the industry and I've guided a bunch of Stones. In the good outfits it is much more likely for a hunter to miss or quit, than it is to actually get skunked.

There's still some awesome Stone hunting out there. The best thing you can do is talk to people that you know that have actually hunted in the area. Also try not to book in an area that has changed hands in the last 2 or 3 years.

 

[Bushmaster1]

Sounds like a tough hunt that’s for sure. I must say it would have been a tough time for new owners and outfitters not knowing if hey were going to be guiding that year or not because of all the Covid rules. I think the outfitters not having tags in general is a over exaggeration this should only ever happen in the last year of the 5 years which I believe was 2022. You have a allotted number of tags for 5 years and you can take over that one fifth in a individual year so you can book extra hunters 4 outa the 5 years. Pretty good system from what I can tell.For most outfits even the last year shouldn’t be issue really, most have there sheep hunting done by the end of aug so they should be able to pick up a last minute client hunting in sept or oct.

 

[thedutchtouch]

My takeaway from this thread is that sheep hunting remains out of my budget reach, good outfitter or bad. Approaching 100k on two hunts sheesh.

 

[Bighorn80]

Im seeing a theme of "the good ones dont do that", and I agree the good ones dont set out to shaft the hunter, which is why there is frustration that the OP doesnt name names and call out one for folks who are seriously interested in doing a stone hunt to be aware of. As stated above finding those things out from references or research wont happen.
Even with good family owned operations (which I truly believe the majority are) it is naive to think they wouldnt our dont sell more hunts than they have tags for. If the outfitter or concession owner gets a stone sheep quota allowing up to say 5 sheep per year, and the outfitter KNOWS his success rate is say 70%, you better believe he is booking 7 or 8 stone sheep hunters to make sure they can reach the quota. And as also mentioned above, that does not favor the hunter-having more hunters than actual tags than can be filled never does. Of course they will not be transparent enough to disclose that. But really the only way that could be set straight is for someone who actually runs a concession or outfit to chime in and enlighten us on what goes on behind the scenes, not second hand from a friend or relative who is "in the business".
And if that is the reality of it, its best just to know the odds and let the person spending that amount of money decide if thats a risk they want to take... which would be unfortunate for those wanting a later season ram with nice hair. Just because a person spends a ridiculous amount of money doesnt mean its a guarantee.

 

[blacksnake0]

Most of what I will offer has been said already. If you are chasing the slam go after the stone. Certainly not going to get any cheaper. I have been lucky enough to hunt both stone and dall. If I could only do one again hands down I would hunt dall.

 

[blacksnake0]

Sorry guys my last post was meant for another thread!!!

 

[cuervosail]

Two questions to ask when doing your research - what is your tag quota (for the year in which you want to hunt), and how many hunters are typically booked. If the quota is 10 per year, and 20 hunters are brought in, someone is quite likely going to miss out. If the GO is reputable, he'll answer both questions honestly.

 

[Rackmastr]

Here is some basic (though legislative) info on "Administrative Guidelines" which is what was being discussed about exceeding quota for a specific year in a 5 year period.

 

[wildwilderness]

Here is some basic (though legislative) info on "Administrative Guidelines" which is what was being discussed about exceeding quota for a specific year in a 5 year period.

View attachment 518201

Thanks for the info- so it looks like 30% not 50% and the rest of the quotas would be affected by that. Does allow small leeway if an “extra” sheep is shot.

I went on a BC stone hunt last year that had been booked since Covid. I was able to learn first hand from the actual owners, who I have personally known for a while since college, how it works in BC and the limitations they have to deal with.

Yes a lot of happy hunters will get their ram! Just giving advice to not be the ones who get skunked or taken for an expensive camping trip!

 

[SagehunterD]

My takeaway from this thread is that sheep hunting remains out of my budget reach, good outfitter or bad. Approaching 100k on two hunts sh

Thanks for the info- so it looks like 30% not 50% and the rest of the quotas would be affected by that. Does allow small leeway if an “extra” sheep is shot.

I went on a BC stone hunt last year that had been booked since Covid. I was able to learn first hand from the actual owners, who I have personally known for a while since college, how it works in BC and the limitations they have to deal with.

Yes a lot of happy hunters will get their ram! Just giving advice to not be the ones who get skunked or taken for an expensive camping trip!

Beautiful ram! Is that a Big 9 ram?

 

[wildwilderness]

Beautiful ram! Is that a Big 9 ram?

Yes. There is a reason they are the most expensive though, set up for hunter success.

 

[Rubicon500]

Yes. There is a reason they are the most expensive though, set up for hunter success.

It’s also the most heavily hunted area in BC from residents the last 3-4 years , Tuchodi as well.

 

[SagehunterD]

Most of what I will offer has been said already. If you are chasing the slam go after the stone. Certainly not going to get any cheaper. I have been lucky enough to hunt both stone and dall. If I could only do one again hands down I would hunt dall.

Agreed! A least a couple decent dall hunts for the price of a stone hunt, or lots of international hunts too!

It’s also the most heavily hunted area in BC from residents the last 3-4 years , Tuchodi as well.

From what I heard there were 44 rams killed in that area in 2020.

 

[Rackmastr]

Draft thinhorn mgmt plan for BC posted recently as well....

https://engage.gov.bc.ca/app/uploads/sites/121/2023/02/Stewardship-Framework-for-Thinhorn-Sheep-v-22-draft-Jan2023.pdf

 

[Clarktar]

Thanks for the info- so it looks like 30% not 50% and the rest of the quotas would be affected by that. Does allow small leeway if an “extra” sheep is shot.

I went on a BC stone hunt last year that had been booked since Covid. I was able to learn first hand from the actual owners, who I have personally known for a while since college, how it works in BC and the limitations they have to deal with.

Yes a lot of happy hunters will get their ram! Just giving advice to not be the ones who get skunked or taken for an expensive camping trip!

Gross, look at all that sun. Could pay me to hunt in that weather.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

 

[ozyclint]

read the first page and thought for sure this was going to get meme bombed

 

[Axlrod]

read the first page and thought for sure this was going to get meme bombed

Read the first sentence "Long time follower of this site and forgot my password from before."
And thought i'm pretty sure it is WAY easier to use forgot password than it is to hunt Stone sheep!

 

[CRJR45]

Read the first sentence "Long time follower of this site and forgot my password from before."
And thought i'm pretty sure it is WAY easier to use forgot password than it is to hunt Stone sheep!

Yep , I thought the same thing , hence my something seems fishy on this thread remark .