Starting point question

[ckleeves]

With only 10 down it I wouldn’t be doing anything as far as load development. Your going to be chasing your tail doing that. Your “max” could end up being over pressure after 150 rounds and now your pulling bullets. I just did a 6.5 saum that I’m pretty sure would be blowing primers if I was loading the same charge in it as when I first started with a fresh barrel now that it has 150 down it.

Buy some cheap bullets (no way I’m using hammers or Berger’s for this) get 100 pieces of matching brass (preferable new) Load em up (start low, work up) now you have 100 pieces of fire formed brass that you can bump for your chamber, a barrel that should be pretty close to settling in to what it’s going to be for it’s useful life.

Then get serious on your load development. Start low and work up. Every barrel is different. It takes no time at all to load in 1/2 grain increments and work up. What are you saving by starting at max? 6 or 8 shots?

I have had barrels where I ended up way over published max and I have had bolts get sticky with middle of the road published data.

Loading past listed COAL in a Sammi throat isn’t going to make that much of a difference. Your not magically going to be able to load 3 grains more just because your seating .0040 further out then your neighbor.

Those bullets are long so even though your COAL is longer you may not have gained any useable case capacity because the boat tail of the bullet is just as far down in the case as a factory 140 accubond. Now if you had some really long custom throat set up for a specific bullet then you could more then likely squeak some more out of it.

Your barrel length doesn’t matter one bit as far as safe max. The only thing you can assume with that is your going to gain a little velocity so if published data shows 3000 and your getting 3050 your probably generating the same pressure. But watch for pressure signs like always.


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[MeatBuck]

Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle

VLD bullets are designed with a secant ogive. This ogive shape allows bullets to be more efficient in flight (retain more velocity = less drop and wind deflection). While this result is desirable for many rifle shooters the secant ogive on the VLD bullets produces another result in many rifle.

bergerbullets.com

Read down where the suggestion for hunters is.

Now in calling Berger the guy recommended I start .015 off the lands and work out in .005 increments for the 170gr elite Hunter however he referred to it constantly as a 175gr.

Why is there so much question and concern with loading long?
Seems like it's recommended by the manufacturer.

Hammer said that they usually match up pretty well with Noslers load recommendations. I've not called nosler to confirm but hammer guy read off Noslers page so... He's also looking for feedback on the bullet.

Because the length of the mono bullet makes up for its lack of density, I figured loading it out longer was better. So as not to take up too much case capacity. Is this not correct?

And on account of that I figured I'd try the Bergers as well since they have "similar" lengths, as a practice/out of state round. Don't really need them for anything else here in ca since I don't practice any poaching.

 

[Montana Slim]

I think the confusion may be that it seemed like you were wanting to load long based off of getting more powder in the case, and loading longer than your mag length, and starting near max.... rather than based off of what your chamber can accommodate. If you do this without a way know your chamber - it can lead to bad things. Same thing with brass from different manufacturers and their variable volumes.

In my limited experience with VLDs, they like to be close to the lands. I have used Barnes and other monos much more, and like someone mentioned earlier, they just seem to like a jump.

 

[rayporter]

there are just too many on here -you need a mentor, or at least one person to listen to.

get new brass-this has been hammered into me by many smiths. if you are really going to just put rounds on the barrel to get wear use the once fired and then toss it.

most of the posts are really great, there are one or two i disagree with but it is a matter of opinion and there are certainly enough opinions stated,, so one more will just add to the confusion.

 

[tdot]

With only 10 down it I wouldn’t be doing anything as far as load development. Your going to be chasing your tail doing that. Your “max” could end up being over pressure after 150 rounds and now your pulling bullets. I just did a 6.5 saum that I’m pretty sure would be blowing primers if I was loading the same charge in it as when I first started with a fresh barrel now that it has 150 down it.

Why does pressure start to increase? I've personally seen barrels speed up, as they get worn in. But not noticed a pressure change. But I'm also doing so much of my initial load development and a barrel break-in, that I doubt I would have the data to see a pressure change.

 

[ckleeves]

Why does pressure start to increase? I've personally seen barrels speed up, as they get worn in. But not noticed a pressure change. But I'm also doing so much of my initial load development and a barrel break-in, that I doubt I would have the data to see a pressure change.

From the research I have done basically a new barrel has many microscopic peaks and valleys in it. So the bullets is riding the peaks and going over the valleys. As the peaks are knocked down by wear and the valleys are filled you end up with much more contact between bullet and bore therefore increasing pressure. That velocity increase you see has to come from pressure, since they are directly related.

When I look back at notes from what I was loading when I barrel was new to what I end up with for a final load I sometimes scare myself kinda a “I was loading Xx.X grains? What was I thinking?!” Type of moment.

I used to try and do load development with new barrels and would chase so many dead ends that I have pretty much given up on it. I’m working with 2 barrels right now that are just settling down @150 rounds each. We see it all the time where guys have 60 rounds on a barrel, think they have the perfect load figured out then the next trip out you hear “Man this was shooting lights out yesterday I’m not sure what’s going on?”

Here is one of them over the chronograph at various round counts. I kept good notes on this one so it’s a good example.
61.3 grains 10 rounds from new: 2988 fps
61.3 @50 rounds: 3012
61.3@100 3088
61.3@ 150 3111 and getting a little spicy.

Now in the first 20 out of that barrel I worked all the way up to 62.1 grains that shot @ 3084. Now imagine if at 150 round count I loaded that same 62.1 it would be .8 grains over what is already about a max load that needs backed down slightly.


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[tdot]

From the research I have done basically a new barrel has many microscopic peaks and valleys in it. So the bullets is riding the peaks and going over the valleys. As the peaks are knocked down by wear and the valleys are filled you end up with much more contact between bullet and bore therefore increasing pressure. That velocity increase you see has to come from pressure, since they are directly related.

When I look back at notes from what I was loading when I barrel was new to what I end up with for a final load I sometimes scare myself kinda a “I was loading Xx.X grains? What was I thinking?!” Type of moment.

I used to try and do load development with new barrels and would chase so many dead ends that I have pretty much given up on it. I’m working with 2 barrels right now that are just settling down @150 rounds each. We see it all the time where guys have 60 rounds on a barrel, think they have the perfect load figured out then the next trip out you hear “Man this was shooting lights out yesterday I’m not sure what’s going on?”

Here is one of them over the chronograph at various round counts. I kept good notes on this one so it’s a good example.
61.3 grains 10 rounds from new: 2988 fps
61.3 @50 rounds: 3012
61.3@100 3088
61.3@ 150 3111 and getting a little spicy.

Now in the first 20 out of that barrel I worked all the way up to 62.1 grains that shot @ 3084. Now imagine if at 150 round count I loaded that same 62.1 it would be .8 grains over what is already about a max load that needs backed down slightly.


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Interesting. Thanks.

I've always taken the barrel speeding up as a decrease in friction from all those imperfections being removed/filled in. I hadnt thought about it being the bore tightening up.

Unfortunately I'm just hitting a 125-175 rounds with my new barrels so cant test that.

I typically run ladder tests on different components to find a general direction to test once the barrel has settled in. I specifically dont try to find pressure in the early stages. So havent seen the correlation with the increase in pressure. That's good to know. Thanks

 

[MeatBuck]

Stainless bbls or what material are you talking?
Your the first to mention anything about this in bbl break in or any part of my research.
I treated bbl break in as panhandle does. Is that a problem?
Would his notes tell the same story after 150 rounds?
Guess I'll have to try to ask him.

I agree with one thing, one teacher, many students. Not the other way around.

 

[ckleeves]

Stainless bbls or what material are you talking?
Your the first to mention anything about this in bbl break in or any part of my research.
I treated bbl break in as panhandle does. Is that a problem?
Would his notes tell the same story after 150 rounds?
Guess I'll have to try to ask him.

I agree with one thing, one teacher, many students. Not the other way around.

I have no idea man. I really don’t care if you take your 213 pieces of random head stamp brass from 7 different chambers and load above max to start since you obviously know more about reloading then anyone who has posted in this thread from YouTube videos. Your concerned about barrel life on a barrel with 10 round thru it.

I don’t believe in any reloading/gunsmithing voodoo. Facts are facts if they have hard data to back them up. I believe about 25% of what I read even from the “experts”

If your looking for one teacher in this game then good luck. Take a mix of the 200 or so “experts” and you can find one that directly contradicts another.


Just my findings. I don’t even know what his barrel break in procedure is. It’s not really a mystery that barrels speed up look on accurate shooter or do some googling. Some much more then others. I can’t answer why. Some manufactures seem to take longer then others I’m not sure If it’s lapping, rifling profile, steel hardness or all of the above. Chambering I’m sure makes a difference, a 26 nosler is going to show much more throat erosion then a .308 and break in faster as well. Long bearing surface bullets will probably get you there faster as well.




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[MeatBuck]

"With only 10 down it I wouldn’t be doing anything as far as load development. Your going to be chasing your tail doing that. Your “max” could end up being over pressure after 150 rounds and now your pulling bullets. I just did a 6.5 saum that I’m pretty sure would be blowing primers if I was loading the same charge in it as when I first started with a fresh barrel now that it has 150 down it."

In theory, wouldn't the imperfections in the bbl reduce friction by riding the bullet on an air pocket created by the imperfections, before smoothing out? Or is it pushing through them causing more friction and pressure? Or does it even matter since it's all happening before load development anyhow?
That being the reason to lay them over with the first few shots before starting load development?

The bullet in a .270 is always .277 and so is the bbl right?
The only way to change that diameter non mechanically is to excessively heat or cool the bbl or bullet, causing more or less friction, right? No change in bbl dementions is caused by imperfections right?

If the first few shots lay the imperfections over, (this can be tested by swabbing the bore for copper fouling). When the copper fouling is gone, so to are the imperfections causing it. Right?
Now load development can be started. Right?
If so, I've done that in 10 shots.( Same as panhandle.)

Now without the imperfections, Shouldn't it get smoother and create more friction/pressure? Or do I have it backwards and common logic doesn't apply?

Can we take this theory and match it to the theory of the boat going faster on choppy waters because less surface area of the hull is contacting the water surface? When water is calm you get full contact between hull and water causing more friction, (which in theory, slows the boat, right?) is this the same or different as the bullet and bbl theory? Or do they corolate at all?

Doesn't seem as tho all the pieces to this puzzle are fitting.

 

[MeatBuck]

You don't even know what material your bbl is made from and you are being rude because I questioned your theory.
Real helpful.
Why don't you do me a favor and "ckleeve" this thread.

 

[Cahunter805]

From the research I have done basically a new barrel has many microscopic peaks and valleys in it. So the bullets is riding the peaks and going over the valleys. As the peaks are knocked down by wear and the valleys are filled you end up with much more contact between bullet and bore therefore increasing pressure. That velocity increase you see has to come from pressure, since they are directly related.

When I look back at notes from what I was loading when I barrel was new to what I end up with for a final load I sometimes scare myself kinda a “I was loading Xx.X grains? What was I thinking?!” Type of moment.

I used to try and do load development with new barrels and would chase so many dead ends that I have pretty much given up on it. I’m working with 2 barrels right now that are just settling down @150 rounds each. We see it all the time where guys have 60 rounds on a barrel, think they have the perfect load figured out then the next trip out you hear “Man this was shooting lights out yesterday I’m not sure what’s going on?”

Here is one of them over the chronograph at various round counts. I kept good notes on this one so it’s a good example.
61.3 grains 10 rounds from new: 2988 fps
61.3 @50 rounds: 3012
61.3@100 3088
61.3@ 150 3111 and getting a little spicy.

Now in the first 20 out of that barrel I worked all the way up to 62.1 grains that shot @ 3084. Now imagine if at 150 round count I loaded that same 62.1 it would be .8 grains over what is already about a max load that needs backed down slightly.


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I’ve noticed the same thing on new barrels as well as my brother/buddies.
Now we normally pick a middle charge node and shoot 100 rounds. During this time you can somewhat test seating depth also. Once 100 rounds fired a ladder to get your powder node then fine tune seating depth.

 

[ckleeves]

You don't even know what material your bbl is made from and you are being rude because I questioned your theory.
Real helpful.
Why don't you do me a favor and "ckleeve" this thread.

Dude seriously? I don’t know what material my barrel is? (SS416R is the one I wrote the velocity specs on if it really makes a difference to you) that’s one of them would you like me to find the specs on every single barrel I own or have worked with?

It’s not “my theory” look around someplace other then YouTube then maybe do some testing yourself. Chrono every single shot (with a accurate chronograph) for the first 150 out of a barrel and then report back with your findings.

You have zero experience and yet you question some actual real world findings. Are you saying that particular barrel didn’t speed up that much? I can probably go thru my chronograph and post a pic of it if it will really make your day. I’m starting in on a new barrel as soon as the reamer gets here would you like me to chrono all of them and then report back to you on that one also??

I’m not sure why you posted this thread. It’s quite apparent you know more then anybody who has offered advice in this thread.

I’m out, got rounds to load to actually go shoot tomorrow and YouTube vids to watch so I can figure out what I’m doing.


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[MeatBuck]

Yes, in your comment to my question regarding bbl material, " I have no idea man" indicates that you didn't know what material your bbl was made of.

Your way of helping a guy learn is to get all butt hurt when he asks questions. And get all defensive when he used the word "your" in reference to the stuff you are saying here.

I couldn't care less if the info u gave is the most important thing about reloading, just because of the way you delivered it.

 

[MeatBuck]

I'm not trying to be told what to do, I'm trying to learn what to do and what not to do, by asking questions and making sense of all the info given. If I have to ask a few questions or a few more questions than the average guy, so be it. That's how I learn.

 

[Ram94]

 

[MeatBuck]

"... would you like me to find the specs on every single barrel I own or have worked with?"

If every one is different, how can one give an opinion on how mine will act?

And if we've happened to work with the same manufacturers and materials, it could be tremendously helpful to me.

Reloading seems a lot like hunting, everyone follows a few basic guidelines but basically, you just go do it yourself (and then speak mainly of your successes afterward).

 

[MeatBuck]

Basically while following a few basic safety guidelines, pick the factors you think will have the most impact on accuracy and work with those until you've burned out your bbl or found something that works.
In the meantime you've just gotta record, shoot and record then reload and shoot and record and reload until your satisfied with the holes you've put in a piece of paper.
Which all add up to dollars spent and data collected.
I knew I was headed down the rabbit hole when I started building but this little bunny has expensive taste.

 

[SDHNTR]

I’m going to try to cut through the drama. I’m from CA too and was in your shoes not long ago. It’s easy to get caught up in the numbers and want the most speed and the longest coal and bla bla bla. Can we start over please? Your first question alluded to danger and some people jumped all over you. I won’t do that but you need some basic info. Forget about what you think you know for the time being please...

1. forget about burning up a barrel. I don’t know a single big game hunter who has ever burned up a barrel inside of a decade or longer, most never will. You are talking thousands of shots before you have to worry. Remove that as a concern entirely.

2. Throw all of your brass away and start with new fresh brass. Do not mix headstamps. Even if you sort. Way too many variables for consistency and safety. Buy the best brass you can afford. Lapua and ADG brass is worth it. It will save you in the long run. FL size off the bat with a slight shoulder bump. After once fired, you can neck size only for a few firings if you want. Don’t mix primers or anything else either.

3. Absolutely do not start at max loads, ever! I have 3 rifles that would probably be dangerous at most published max loads. There is way too much variation in chamber and barrel dimensions, throat and freebore, barrel twist, etc. In a modern rifle you can probably get away with starting at somewhere between minimum and halfway loads, but that’s it. Don’t ever start above halfway. ESPECIALLY WITH MONO BULLETS! They behave like a MUCH heavier/longer bullet.

4. Per above, do not EVER substitute the load data with a lead bullet and use a mono of same weight. If you can’t find data for the mono you want to use, start low and treat that mono like it were a couple classes heavier lead bullet. Build up VERY gradually. .2-.3 gr of powder at a time.

5. The craze around long bullets and seating them way out is overblown, and can be dangerous with monos. Barnes will even tell you to start at .040 off the lands and push in from there. Forget about approaching lands. Monos don’t like that and can get dangerous pressure spikes too close to lands. Most of my mono loads shoot best .060-.085 off.

6. Do everything with meticulous attention to detail. Reloading time is not a time to have a few beers or chat with your buddies. You need 100% focus. Do everything to perfect consistency and triple check everything.

7. Study up on a ladder test. Follow it and completely let go of any preconceived notions of what kind of results you think you should have or might want. Let the rifle tell you what it likes and be satisfied with what it tells you. That may be a slower load. That may be more jump than you want and a shorter coal. Don’t force it to be something it doesn’t want to be.

8. Next time ask your questions without any assumptions or any desired answers already implied. I think that’s where you went wrong here as some of your thoughts were not just wrong, but very dangerous.

Good luck and be safe!

 

[MeatBuck]

I've read that wsm bbls have shorter life. True or?