Spotting your shot, most import factors.

[Chet707]

Thanks - this is the best suggestion I have heard so far I think. The full auto makes a ton of sense. I could do the pistol version. though I wonder if it would translate over to the different context of the bolt gun?

A 10/22 seems like the easy button for this type of correction. Cheap, accessible and higher rate of fire in a rifle platform.

 

[Bobrobheimer]

If I were to have seen this exact same convo about 2 months ago, I'd 100% agree with you and what you're saying.

Yet, I've just experienced the single biggest performance leap I've had in 25 years. Slashing my times by over 20% and accelerating, while at about 95%ish the same accuracy, and also getting better. Rapidly.

All that said, I absolutely would have to concede that I'm not a beginner, and this may not be the right approach for a beginner. For exactly the reasons you said. I also mix in up to 50% snap-caps for some of my evolutions specifically to monitor flinch, and spent 30 years attempting to master trigger control on single, precision, well-aimed shots. So the fundamentals are absolutely sound. Then I just went fast.

And the results are speaking for themselves. I'd definitely encourage you to let loose and give it a go. In a way, it similar to the first time someone tells you not to focus on the front sight, but to focus on the target.

My experience, thus far, is that the snatching, flinching, jerking, etc, are coming from too much time. Again, it's counter-intuitive, and counter-cultural. But nobody jerks the mouse button when they get the cursor on the icon - they don't even think about it. Point, click. It's anticipation and mental loading, through too much time, that were holding me back.

This morning's shooting:

All the aces were 10 rounds under 10 seconds (they're easier), the 5s were slower at about 12-15 seconds. The 3s were all right at just about 3 seconds. All from low-ready:View attachment 983031View attachment 983032View attachment 983033View attachment 983036View attachment 983037

What you are saying makes sense to me, that is to say the added time = added mental loading jives with experiments I have had but in rifle and archery.

 

[RockAndSage]

I imagine different people have weaker or stronger reflex blink pathways. Maybe folks with less reflex blinking can’t relate and not blinking is easy (unless they develop a flinch) you note about “with hearing pro” supports this - would you blink if you fired a breaker gun without hearing pro do you think? (Genuinely asking)

To me it clear that this is a subconscious REACTION (reflex blink) to the noise and or recoil. (an unsurpassed 22LR might help define if the noise or recoil is of greater stimuli to me since it will still be noisy but without recoil)

If I imagine a thought experiment where a 100 people who have never seen or fired a gun are asked to do so without any knowledge of what will happen, I think nearly all would blink after the shot. It’s the normal human response and has to be conditioned out through desensitization. Maybe folks like you that have fired so dang many rounds have Long since done that.

I have never fired full auto anything and don’t anticipate such an opportunity. But it stands to reason that one might stop blinking during a long sustained rapid firing sequence as you become desensitized to it.

@Bobrobheimer , I'm going to make a point here that anything @Formidilosus is trying to coach you on with shooting - just do it. He's not wrong, and you will be 100% good to go in just listening to what he says and applying it.

One of my earlier comments was intended just to help give another method of desensitization and a way to teach how to stay in-the-moment and zen focused, avoiding the mental loading of anticipation - definitely did not mean to hijack the thread. Just consider it an obscure data-point to maybe revisit later on, and do your best to take in what Form's saying to you.

 

[Formidilosus]

Yet, I've just experienced the single biggest performance leap I've had in 25 years. Slashing my times by over 20% and accelerating, while at about 95%ish the same accuracy, and also getting better. Rapidly.

Because of “dot on, go bang”? Or because you are allowing yourself, or forcing yourself to act right now?

Two different things.

All that said, I absolutely would have to concede that I'm not a beginner, and this may not be the right approach for a beginner.

It is definitely not the right approach unless someone’s working skill is at a high level.

For exactly the reasons you said. I also mix in up to 50% snap-caps for some of my evolutions specifically to monitor flinch, and spent 30 years attempting to master trigger control on single, precision, well-aimed shots. So the fundamentals are absolutely sound. Then I just went fast.

That all makes sense.

I'd definitely encourage you to let loose and give it a go.

Haha.…. I am familiar with what TPC teaches and why. I have no issue letting go. grin

My experience, thus far, is that the snatching, flinching, jerking, etc, are coming from too much time.

So you have control of the gun, but you aren’t able to control snatching, flinching, jerking- because you have to much time? Think through this logically and critically, and what this means psychologically.

But nobody jerks the mouse button when they get the cursor on the icon - they don't even think about it. Point, click.

A mouse button is not tied to a desire to hit a target, nor an explosion in front of your face, nor putting pressure at an exact instant to break your grip/stance, nor making you focus on two things at once. People with archery target panic don’t have target panic with a mouse button either.

It's anticipation and mental loading, through too much time, that were holding me back.

If it is working for you, no issue. However, it is not what is actually happening, and is generally disastrous when most people try it. Even saying “mental loading” is kind of ridiculous. Like if “oo I just get too much time to think, I just can’t press a trigger”. Or “I just have so much to think about that my brain turns to mush and I can’t perform”. It’s a gun, gain control of yourself at all times, in all situations. The gun fires when I want it to, and it fires how I want it to. Mental loading has no part in it.

 

[RockAndSage]

The gun fires when I want it to, and it fires how I want it to.

The gun is firing exactly when I want it to - where I want it to. Nothing uncontrolled about it, at all.

You and I are saying nearly the same thing about anticipation. What I'm adding is that, at least with pistol and dynamic carbine, the less time spent mentally loading up anticipation (what Rossen is calling static), that discharge is what's causing the jerk/snatch, etc - in direct proportion to how much mental loading is going on. It's the same thing for any high-performance endeavor, especially sports.

The more zen-focused and clear mentally someone trains themselves to be is another way to minimize that static buildup and subsequent discharge before, during, and/or after the shot. Going fast and learning point-and-click is a different path up that same mountain. At least with pistol and dynamic carbine. I can't speak to how this, or much of anything, applies to precision rifle.

BTW, I can't take credit for this - it wasn't an idea I just had one day to go blaze away. I was talking with a former colleague about visual training and target focus drills, and within that conversation I mentioned my personal 15 second barrier on the modified Dalton Drill that has been so frustrating. Afterward he sent me a clip of Matt Pranka discussing shooting fast, along these lines. I went out and applied it. And it took me to an entirely different level. My understandings about it removing time for mental loading are my own, after about 8000 rounds of application and trying to figure out why it was working.

 

[Formidilosus]

I imagine different people have weaker or stronger reflex blink pathways. Maybe folks with less reflex blinking can’t relate and not blinking is easy (unless they develop a flinch)

Everyone blinks in the beginning. Most blink or other anticipation actions their whole shooting life because they never correct it.

you note about “with hearing pro” supports this - would you blink if you fired a breaker gun without hearing pro do you think? (Genuinely asking)

I have shoot without blinking without ear pro. However, that is different- pain and damage to your ears, versus dry fire and live with ear pro where no pain is happening.

To me it clear that this is a subconscious REACTION (reflex blink) to the noise and or recoil.

Of course it is. However just because something is subconscious or natural, does not make it right. Nothing in shooting is natural, quite the opposite. To be skilled at shooting is to ingrain unnatural behavior.

an unsurpassed 22LR might help define if the noise or recoil is of greater stimuli to me since it will still be noisy but without recoil)

Don’t do that- .22’s still cause damage without ear pro.

If I imagine a thought experiment where a 100 people who have never seen or fired a gun are asked to do so without any knowledge of what will happen, I think nearly all would blink after the shot.

Yes it is, and I am unsure what that matters to “correct shooting”.

It’s the normal human response and has to be conditioned out through desensitization.

That is correct. Until someone desensitizes themself to it, and conditions themselves to keep eyes open with no involuntary actions before, during, or after the shot- they will not be shooting optimally.

Maybe folks like you that have fired so dang many rounds have Long since done that.

It that many rounds. Dry fire until your eye doesn’t blink. Then ball and dummy. Until your eye doesn’t blink.

I have never fired full auto anything and don’t anticipate such an opportunity. But it stands to reason that one might stop blinking during a long sustained rapid firing sequence as you become desensitized to it.

Full auto can help with one part of it, but will hurt in another part of it.

 

[Bobrobheimer]

Everyone blinks in the beginning. Most blink or other anticipation actions their whole shooting life because they never correct it.




I have shoot without blinking without ear pro. However, that is different- pain and damage to your ears, versus dry fire and live with ear pro where no pain is happening.







Of course it is. However just because something is subconscious or natural, does not make it right. Nothing in shooting is natural, quite the opposite. To be skilled at shooting is to ingrain unnatural behavior.




Don’t do that- .22’s still cause damage without ear pro.




Yes it is, and I am unsure what that matters to “correct shooting”.




That is correct. Until someone desensitizes themself to it, and conditions themselves to keep eyes open with no involuntary actions before, during, or after the shot- they will not be shooting optimally.




It that many rounds. Dry fire until your eye doesn’t blink. Then ball and dummy. Until your eye doesn’t blink.





Full auto can help with one part of it, but will hurt in another part of it.

All of this - thumbs up. I will start working on both of those methods - dry fire and dummy rounds. I’ll report back and let folks know how it goes.

(Wasn’t thinking to shoot 22LR without ear protection- just that 22 unsurpassed would be similar in volume to the 6cm suppressed - both with ear protection).

 

[Formidilosus]

The gun is firing exactly when I want it to - where I want it to. Nothing uncontrolled about it, at all.

Then you wouldn’t be having problems by “too much time” to think about it.

What I'm adding is that, at least with pistol and dynamic carbine, the less time spent mentally loading up anticipation (what Rossen is calling static), that discharge is what's causing the jerk/snatch, etc -

That is factually incorrect. Someone with a flinch will flinch if they take 20 seconds to make a shot, or if they take 0.15 seconds to make a shot. In almost all cases the flinch will be worse the “faster” they try to go.

in direct proportion to how much mental loading is going on. It's the same thing for any high-performance endeavor, especially sports.

Sort of, sort of not. Shooting a gun (or bow) has an aspect that almost no other sport or activity does- “the moment I do this, there will be an explosion and it will try to leave my hands”. That alone separates it from most other things.

Going fast and learning point-and-click is a different path up that same mountain.

Almost every USPSA GM that I have seen seen in ball and dummy has a flinch unless they have a heavy bullseye background. It may be controlled, but it is an uncommanded movement during or after the shot.

BTW, I can't take credit for this - it wasn't an idea I just had one day to go blaze away. I was talking with a former colleague about visual training and target focus drills, and within that conversation I mentioned my personal 15 second barrier on the modified Dalton Drill that has been so frustrating.

This may be a thing that you had a barrier to and thinking of it this way is helping you. However, that does not mean it was the actual issue, or that doing so is what most (almost anyone) should be doing- that’s all I’m trying to get at. There are all kinds of mind games to play on people to help them gain control or get over someone, or gain awareness- what is said may have nothing to do with what is actually happening, but some people internalize different things differently.

Afterward he sent me a clip of Matt Pranka discussing shooting fast, along these lines. I went out and applied it. And it took me to an entirely different level.

Matt can shoot of course. But also remember he is a GM that grew up in a heavily bullseye focused place that demanded controlled shooting. He was also part of the reason that it started being acceptable to shoot charlie’s sometimes as well. Some consider that missing.

My understandings about it removing time for mental loading are my own, after about 8000 rounds of application and trying to figure out why it was working.

I am glad the thought is working for you. And while I acknowledge that in the end for you it doesn’t matter, we need to be correct in what is stated. What you are describing I would (I would argue factually) say is a “coping mechanism”.

 

[RockAndSage]

I think what you’re talking about some call active trigger control, and learning it over weaving all over the target until the trigger breaks randomly has resulted in a quick jump in my personal scores. Anything that is quicker and cuts group size is hard to argue against.

What was a surprise to me is it takes a couple tenths of a second for the brain to move the trigger finger, so we’re actually trying to fire slightly before we’re on target. Some try to fire as the crosshairs pause on the target, and this is just trying to find a way to pause for that fraction of a second of reaction time, but that or firing as the crosshairs are almost on target both have been shown to be correct. Both are anticipating and trying to move the finger before the shot to allow the shot to connect. There’s a video mapping Olympic shooters sight picture on target with trigger pull showing different personal variations and no one way was dominant, other than good shooters have consistency.

There's definitely some similarity. I looked at the video's channel, and found this video too, which goes into it a bit, but doesn't explain much of the why behind it, though the "retrain your brain" part is something that's going on.

What they're getting at, and some of what I'm experiencing too, is that it's putting the shooting just a bit deeper into semi-conscious/subconscious control, similar to walking and taking steps. You don't need to tell yourself how to walk through the 18-part stepping process, you just do it. It's the toddler still trying to make conscious decisions at each part of the stepping process, who is experiencing anticipation/mental loading and being future/fear oriented, rather than staying in the moment, that's having the problems. In a violent encounter, whether shooting birds or dealing with someone shooting at you, your shooting needs to be so ingrained that it's the easiest part of navigating the encounter.

What I'm also experiencing, is that like with foreign language or fighting or batting or throwing a pitch or whatever, it's much more of a repetition over time thing, rather than the amount of time per repetition. Getting good, quality reps in, in volume - not how long each one takes. Because it's training the brain to stay in the moment, just in a different, far faster way than walking yourself through the steps of a shot process, or anticipating the meaning of a given shot. It just pushes all that bull$h*t out of the way, and you just go.

To use the crawl-walk-run training analogy though, it feels like I just went from toddling to sprinting. It's a cool experience to get a breakthrough like this.

 

[Marbles]

There's definitely some similarity. I looked at the video's channel, and found this video too, which goes into it a bit, but doesn't explain much of the why behind it, though the "retrain your brain" part is something that's going on.

What they're getting at, and some of what I'm experiencing too, is that it's putting the shooting just a bit deeper into semi-conscious/subconscious control, similar to walking and taking steps. You don't need to tell yourself how to walk through the 18-part stepping process, you just do it. It's the toddler still trying to make conscious decisions at each part of the stepping process, who is experiencing anticipation/mental loading and being future/fear oriented, rather than staying in the moment, that's having the problems. In a violent encounter, whether shooting birds or dealing with someone shooting at you, your shooting needs to be so ingrained that it's the easiest part of navigating the encounter.

What I'm also experiencing, is that like with foreign language or fighting or batting or throwing a pitch or whatever, it's much more of a repetition over time thing, rather than the amount of time per repetition. Getting good, quality reps in, in volume - not how long each one takes. Because it's training the brain to stay in the moment, just in a different, far faster way than walking yourself through the steps of a shot process, or anticipating the meaning of a given shot. It just pushes all that bull$h*t out of the way, and you just go.

To use the crawl-walk-run training analogy though, it feels like I just went from toddling to sprinting. It's a cool experience to get a breakthrough like this.

There is certainly power in getting the conscious brain out of the way. To this day I'm not good at shooting without aiming. But as a teenager I hunted squirrels with a 22, one day I went with a friend and used a 12 ga with a tight choke. I was not familiar with shotguns and stupidity thought I didn't have to aim. I killed a good number of squirrels that day never doing more than looking at the squirrel and bringing the gun up, I wasn't even trying to aim.

Sadly, I can't repeat that performance as my consciousness mind tries too hard.