Spotting your shot, most import factors.

[nm.otter]

Updated the image to include what I have so far.

I stopped at 7mm once I realized that 6.5mm was likely the biggest bore I would ever want/need to shoot supersonic.

 

[elsb0048]

1. butt stock length (shorter so that you can put the rifle on collarbone closer to centerline of body for recoil management)
2. grip to trigger/vertical grip (put your finger and hand in neutral position for clean press)
3. comb straight or neg (my face doesn't work well with Rokstock unless I have high rings)
4. toe more flat than typical (some angle helps with long range adjustment of bag)
5. grip size (relaxed hand)
6. flatish forend (for resting on bags and not rolling)

1. scope height (I prefer higher because it improves the angle your neck has to tilt forward, reducing strain, prone especially. The taller you are the longer your neck is and higher rings should be)
2. scope eyebox set up so that prone is at one end of the eye box and standing is on the other end

Not OP but I found this detailed list super helpful thank you!

 

[Formidilosus]

1. butt stock length (shorter so that you can put the rifle on collarbone closer to centerline of body for recoil management)

I’m going to nitpick here (or not nitpick).

This is the worst trend right now in shooting. First, put a gun on your collar bone that actually recoils. Do it with a 12ga. Do it with anything that does more than a PRS 30lb rifle and actually shoot/practice with it from something other than a tripod.
Common rifle/cartridge combinations exceed the requirement to break the average collar bone. Not only that, but repeated recoil on bone is painful- some students at S2H often get sore from 223’s at 200 rounds a day; and I believe we have only had 2 or 3 people out 40+ that have started with 6cm or 6.5cm’s, make it past day 2 before asking to borrow a 223.

This “bring rifle to centerline” was brought up by “tactical” dudes (not competitors first) from the old days of MP5 full auto shooting. This was an attempt to control the up and right movement for RH shooters, that happens during recoil- because almost no one understood how to make a stock that works correctly. They were able to do that because PRS guns have functionally zero movement when fired, and because nearly all shots are from some sort of standing/barricade/tripod position. It is utterly compromised for dynamic field shooting.


This was farther adopted because the common grips on stocks are absolutely atrocious. Fat, with a way too long trigger reach. When you have a bad grip angle, fat grip, and a trigger reach that is over an inch longer than it should be- you need to rotate your wrist counterclockwise and move your finger up to get to the trigger. Now look at what that does to your shoulder position and arm…. THAT is why short LOP has become the thing. As soon as you have to compromise the grip as above, your LOP must by necessity lesson, and combined with the barricaded positions that allow it, and with not having recoil- there is no apparent penalty for it. (This also relates to higher mounted scopes).


Change all of that to how a stock should be designed, and nothing about a long LOP makes shooting a rifle hard- quite the opposite. The farther your hand is from your chest, the better your index finger moves straight to the rear, the less severe angle and hence, strain is on your wrist; and the more your grip helps control recoil.
On top of that, when shooting dynamically, the farther your shooting hand is from your chest, and the farther your offhand is from your shooting hand- the more control you have over the rifle in all axis.

When you design a stock correctly- recoil pad above bore and get a solid cheek weld; then you can use a longer LOP put 90° into the shoulder pocket, and the up and right recoil goes away.

This rifle below has a 14.75” LOP, very short trigger reach of approx 1.5”, and a very well designed grip. Every single person from 12yo girls to 6’6” males that have shot it, have done easily, and almost all have stated it was the best feeling and shooting gun they have ever shot. Hell, there are 4-5 posters on here that after shooting it, went and found one and bought it.







In short: this doesn’t mean that one can’t shoot a short LOP and centerline pad well. It means that the trend of short LOP and recoil pad “centerline” is due to a combination of really poorly designed grips and stocks, a misunderstanding of what is causing sight movement during recoil, and a shooting sphere that promotes it and has no consequence for doing it.

1. grip to trigger/vertical grip (put your finger and hand in neutral position for clean press)

Yes.

1. comb straight or neg (my face doesn't work well with Rokstock unless I have high rings)

You need longer LOP. The standard LOP for Rokstock should have been at least 14”, but consumers wouldn’t have understood why.

1. toe more flat than typical (some angle helps with long range adjustment of bag)

I/we haven’t seen any advantage with an angled toe in timed events side by side with people specifically trying to show that there is; and only a detriment in straight line recoil.

1. grip size (relaxed hand)

Yes- narrow and verticle’ish, with a sub 1.7” trigger reach.

1. flatish forend (for resting on bags and not rolling)

Yes.

1. scope height (I prefer higher because it improves the angle your neck has to tilt forward, reducing strain, prone especially. The taller you are the longer your neck is and higher rings should be)

That is exactly opposite of what your neck must do with higher rings- anyone can experience this right now. Lay prone, straight and neutral (your body straight inline with your target as below).

Now, what is less strain on your neck- head relaxed in a normal position looking down to the ground? Or- head pulled way up and looking at the ceiling.

The is the second worst trend is shooting right now. It is driven by just shooting from a standing position of some sort, and the nonsense “heads up improves target awareness” crap from certain people in the tactical community.

1st- as above, it is way more strain on the average persons neck in any position that doesn’t have the torso vertical.

2nd- for most stocks it removes the cheekweld from recoil and control. This is the negative sub component to the “heads up” high mounted scope thing. The cheeckweld offers a pretty substantial effect to recoil control through pressure and friction of the cheek into the stock. This is readily seen with an AR15 and visible laser in rapid fire at close range- remove the face from the gun or only have it touching at “jaw-weld” and the laser bounces all over the place, is very inconsistent and not predictable at all. In contrast, burry the cheek fat into the stock and the laser movement during recoil is cut in half at least, and the movement is extremely consistent and predictable. It’s not even close between them.

3rd- it’s also tangentially related to short LOP. Shorter LOP makes it more difficult for o get enough eye relief for lots of setups, and one way I get your eyebrow back, is to move your head “up”.

Now a very hard cheekweld and hard comb on the stock can and will cause some effects to the rifle (left reticle movement during recoil, and can a left trend with impacts with the ROKStok for instance). However, look at the picture above of what is on the comb. Look at the rifles below-

1. scope eyebox set up so that prone is at one end of the eye box and standing is on the other end

Yes.

 

[RockAndSage]

I’m going to nitpick here (or not nitpick).

This is the worst trend right now in shooting. First, put a gun on your collar bone that actually recoils. Do it with a 12ga. Do it with anything that does more than a PRS 30lb rifle and actually shoot/practice with it from something other than a tripod.
Common rifle/cartridge combinations exceed the requirement to break the average collar bone. Not only that, but repeated recoil on bone is painful- some students at S2H often get sore from 223’s at 200 rounds a day; and I believe we have only had 2 or 3 people out 40+ that have started with 6cm or 6.5cm’s, make it past day 2 before asking to borrow a 223.

This “bring rifle to centerline” was brought up by “tactical” dudes (not competitors first) from the old days of MP5 full auto shooting. This was an attempt to control the up and right movement for RH shooters, that happens during recoil- because almost no one understood how to make a stock that works correctly. They were able to do that because PRS guns have functionally zero movement when fired, and because nearly all shots are from some sort of standing/barricade/tripod position. It is utterly compromised for dynamic field shooting.


This was farther adopted because the common grips on stocks are absolutely atrocious. Fat, with a way too long trigger reach. When you have a bad grip angle, fat grip, and a trigger reach that is over an inch longer than it should be- you need to rotate your wrist counterclockwise and move your finger up to get to the trigger. Now look at what that does to your shoulder position and arm…. THAT is why short LOP has become the thing. As soon as you have to compromise the grip as above, your LOP must by necessity lesson, and combined with the barricaded positions that allow it, and with not having recoil- there is no apparent penalty for it. (This also relates to higher mounted scopes).


Change all of that to how a stock should be designed, and nothing about a long LOP makes shooting a rifle hard- quite the opposite. The farther your hand is from your chest, the better your index finger moves straight to the rear, the less severe angle and hence, strain is on your wrist; and the more your grip helps control recoil.
On top of that, when shooting dynamically, the farther your shooting hand is from your chest, and the farther your offhand is from your shooting hand- the more control you have over the rifle in all axis.

When you design a stock correctly- recoil pad above bore and get a solid cheek weld; then you can use a longer LOP put 90° into the shoulder pocket, and the up and right recoil goes away.

This rifle below has a 14.75” LOP, very short trigger reach of approx 1.5”, and a very well designed grip. Every single person from 12yo girls to 6’6” males that have shot it, have done easily, and almost all have stated it was the best feeling and shooting gun they have ever shot. Hell, there are 4-5 posters on here that after shooting it, went and found one and bought it.

View attachment 979888

View attachment 979889



In short: this doesn’t mean that one can’t shoot a short LOP and centerline pad well. It means that the trend of short LOP and recoil pad “centerline” is due to a combination of really poorly designed grips and stocks, a misunderstanding of what is causing sight movement during recoil, and a shooting sphere that promotes it and has no consequence for doing it.






Yes.





You need longer LOP. The standard LOP for Rokstock should have been at least 14”, but consumers wouldn’t have understood why.




I/we haven’t seen any advantage with an angled toe in timed events side by side with people specifically trying to show that there is; and only a detriment in straight line recoil.




Yes- narrow and verticle’ish, with a sub 1.7” trigger reach.




Yes.





That is exactly opposite of what your neck must do with higher rings- anyone can experience this right now. Lay prone, straight and neutral (your body straight inline with your target as below).
View attachment 979936
Now, what is less strain on your neck- head relaxed in a normal position looking down to the ground? Or- head pulled way up and looking at the ceiling.

The is the second worst trend is shooting right now. It is driven by just shooting from a standing position of some sort, and the nonsense “heads up improves target awareness” crap from certain people in the tactical community.

1st- as above, it is way more strain on the average persons neck in any position that doesn’t have the torso vertical.

2nd- for most stocks it removes the cheekweld from recoil and control. This is the negative sub component to the “heads up” high mounted scope thing. The cheeckweld offers a pretty substantial effect to recoil control through pressure and friction of the cheek into the stock. This is readily seen with an AR15 and visible laser in rapid fire at close range- remove the face from the gun or only have it touching at “jaw-weld” and the laser bounces all over the place, is very inconsistent and not predictable at all. In contrast, burry the cheek fat into the stock and the laser movement during recoil is cut in half at least, and the movement is extremely consistent and predictable. It’s not even close between them.

3rd- it’s also tangentially related to short LOP. Shorter LOP makes it more difficult for o get enough eye relief for lots of setups, and one way I get your eyebrow back, is to move your head “up”.

Now a very hard cheekweld and hard comb on the stock can and will cause some effects to the rifle (left reticle movement during recoil, and can a left trend with impacts with the ROKStok for instance). However, look at the picture above of what is on the comb. Look at the rifles below-


View attachment 979931

View attachment 979917

View attachment 979929

View attachment 979938

View attachment 979932


View attachment 979934

View attachment 979935




Yes.

This was absolutely fascinating, definitely appreciate the level of detail.

In particular, the points you make about cheek-weld - it reminded me quite a bit about grip pressures and inputs on a handgun in managing sight tracking/recoil/trigger control, etc. That really clicked something into place for me in understanding precision rifle a bit better.

Would you mind sharing a primer on cheek weld, and what inputs you're imparting with different points of body contact and platform (ie, shoulder pressure, hand pressures, how hard you're pressing the cheek, pressure into bipod/tripod/bags, etc)?

 

[hereinaz]

I’m going to nitpick here (or not nitpick).

This is the worst trend right now in shooting. First, put a gun on your collar bone that actually recoils. Do it with a 12ga. Do it with anything that does more than a PRS 30lb rifle and actually shoot/practice with it from something other than a tripod.
Common rifle/cartridge combinations exceed the requirement to break the average collar bone. Not only that, but repeated recoil on bone is painful- some students at S2H often get sore from 223’s at 200 rounds a day; and I believe we have only had 2 or 3 people out 40+ that have started with 6cm or 6.5cm’s, make it past day 2 before asking to borrow a 223.

This “bring rifle to centerline” was brought up by “tactical” dudes (not competitors first) from the old days of MP5 full auto shooting. This was an attempt to control the up and right movement for RH shooters, that happens during recoil- because almost no one understood how to make a stock that works correctly. They were able to do that because PRS guns have functionally zero movement when fired, and because nearly all shots are from some sort of standing/barricade/tripod position. It is utterly compromised for dynamic field shooting.


This was farther adopted because the common grips on stocks are absolutely atrocious. Fat, with a way too long trigger reach. When you have a bad grip angle, fat grip, and a trigger reach that is over an inch longer than it should be- you need to rotate your wrist counterclockwise and move your finger up to get to the trigger. Now look at what that does to your shoulder position and arm…. THAT is why short LOP has become the thing. As soon as you have to compromise the grip as above, your LOP must by necessity lesson, and combined with the barricaded positions that allow it, and with not having recoil- there is no apparent penalty for it. (This also relates to higher mounted scopes).


Change all of that to how a stock should be designed, and nothing about a long LOP makes shooting a rifle hard- quite the opposite. The farther your hand is from your chest, the better your index finger moves straight to the rear, the less severe angle and hence, strain is on your wrist; and the more your grip helps control recoil.
On top of that, when shooting dynamically, the farther your shooting hand is from your chest, and the farther your offhand is from your shooting hand- the more control you have over the rifle in all axis.

When you design a stock correctly- recoil pad above bore and get a solid cheek weld; then you can use a longer LOP put 90° into the shoulder pocket, and the up and right recoil goes away.

This rifle below has a 14.75” LOP, very short trigger reach of approx 1.5”, and a very well designed grip. Every single person from 12yo girls to 6’6” males that have shot it, have done easily, and almost all have stated it was the best feeling and shooting gun they have ever shot. Hell, there are 4-5 posters on here that after shooting it, went and found one and bought it.

View attachment 979888

View attachment 979889



In short: this doesn’t mean that one can’t shoot a short LOP and centerline pad well. It means that the trend of short LOP and recoil pad “centerline” is due to a combination of really poorly designed grips and stocks, a misunderstanding of what is causing sight movement during recoil, and a shooting sphere that promotes it and has no consequence for doing it.






Yes.





You need longer LOP. The standard LOP for Rokstock should have been at least 14”, but consumers wouldn’t have understood why.




I/we haven’t seen any advantage with an angled toe in timed events side by side with people specifically trying to show that there is; and only a detriment in straight line recoil.




Yes- narrow and verticle’ish, with a sub 1.7” trigger reach.




Yes.





That is exactly opposite of what your neck must do with higher rings- anyone can experience this right now. Lay prone, straight and neutral (your body straight inline with your target as below).
View attachment 979936
Now, what is less strain on your neck- head relaxed in a normal position looking down to the ground? Or- head pulled way up and looking at the ceiling.

The is the second worst trend is shooting right now. It is driven by just shooting from a standing position of some sort, and the nonsense “heads up improves target awareness” crap from certain people in the tactical community.

1st- as above, it is way more strain on the average persons neck in any position that doesn’t have the torso vertical.

2nd- for most stocks it removes the cheekweld from recoil and control. This is the negative sub component to the “heads up” high mounted scope thing. The cheeckweld offers a pretty substantial effect to recoil control through pressure and friction of the cheek into the stock. This is readily seen with an AR15 and visible laser in rapid fire at close range- remove the face from the gun or only have it touching at “jaw-weld” and the laser bounces all over the place, is very inconsistent and not predictable at all. In contrast, burry the cheek fat into the stock and the laser movement during recoil is cut in half at least, and the movement is extremely consistent and predictable. It’s not even close between them.

3rd- it’s also tangentially related to short LOP. Shorter LOP makes it more difficult for o get enough eye relief for lots of setups, and one way I get your eyebrow back, is to move your head “up”.

Now a very hard cheekweld and hard comb on the stock can and will cause some effects to the rifle (left reticle movement during recoil, and can a left trend with impacts with the ROKStok for instance). However, look at the picture above of what is on the comb. Look at the rifles below-


View attachment 979931

View attachment 979917

View attachment 979929

View attachment 979938

View attachment 979932


View attachment 979934

View attachment 979935




Yes.

Good info, @mxgsfmdpx has a longer Rokstock setup now, so I will give it a try.

I tried to like it. And, I can see the logic of your explanation. It’s good to hear your input, appreciated.

Yes, on the influences on centerline shooting on collarbone. PRS does bring in lots of nonsense to hunting. I try to avoid and eliminate the nonsense and go with what works for me.

So, I can say it works for me, and has improved shooting for others. It does eliminate the offset recoil and gives more control to spot shots.

The cheek weld I use is more just to index my head with the point my jaw hits. No pressure cause it can move the rifle.

BUT, there can always be better ways.

I do shoot off a tripod a lot here in AZ. Adapting to my preferred technique as stated does require lighter recoiling rifles-part of my list. I will not shoot higher recoiling rifles like that.