Snake training for dogs

[87TT]

Get the training. It can't hurt and works most of the time. My dog will have nothing to do with snakes of any kind. I live in snake country and she runs loose all day. Get the vaccine every spring and try not to worry. My wife shot a rattler last night while walking the dog who was off leash. That dog will take the long way around any snake dead or alive.

 

[Austink47]

We took our lab/weim she responded very well to the traditional shock training.

 

[MuleyFever]

I never did make it to a training yet. Dealing with my dogs uncontrollable behavior around other dogs at the moment.

 

[87TT]

I never did make it to a training yet. Dealing with my dogs uncontrollable behavior around other dogs at the moment.

E collar work or me on my rambunctious lab

 

[Matt W.]

Benadryl won't help with a snakebite. Good for bee stings or other types of allergic reactions.

Below is the article I was sent. Just looking for real world feedback... ???

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Snake Bite Season: Liquid Benadryl (Children's) 1 mg per Lb body Weight......
Teaspoon = 12.5 LBS Body Weight.
Keep it on hand if your in Snake Country......almost as fast as injection. (Still get them to the Vet as quickly as possible)

BENADRYL FOR SNAKE BITES

This article was written by a veterinarian of the United Waterfowlers Forum.
(http://unitedwaterfowlersfl.org/forum/showthread.php?t=24045&highlight=BENADRYL+SNAKE+BITES ) Post #9

"First, let me say that I have been a vet for 23 years in N Florida. We treat probably an average of 15 snake bites a year. That would translate to over 300 snake bite cases I have treated, or been involved in. So my opinions are not based on what happened to one dog, or my neighbor's dog or even the 2 dogs that have been bitten that I personally owned. So not only have I treated a lot, but since I do treat so many, I stay current with current treatment options and what works best (based on data, not stories).

So, here goes with some absolutes about snakes. The things that follow are facts that I have either observed or read or both.


-There is no magic time for how long until treatment. get them there as soon as you safely can. I have saved dogs that were bitten 24 hours prior and had patients die that I saw within 30 minutes. The exception is if there is a bite to the tongue or inside of mouth that may cause breathing issues. I have never seen a bite to the nose cause life threatening breathing issues.

-You do not need to make any effort whatsoever to "get the snake" to take it to the vet. If it is poisonous and causes swelling, we know what to do. The only other poisonous snake in FL is the coral and it does not cause swelling. Unless it is some released species and we will not have antivenin anyway.

-Antivenin (antivenom) is NOT an antidote (meaning it cures). I rarely give it anymore. There are situations where I think it is best to give it, but I have found very little prediction of survival based on antivenin administration. There are some cases that are so bad, you had better use everything you have (bites to the trunk (body) of small dogs or cats).

-Benadryl (Diphenhydramine) is NEVER wrong to give and almost always, if not always, will help the patient. The liquid is nearly as fast as an injection. 1mg per pound of body weight (or Children's Liquid, generic is fine - 1 tsp for every 12.5 pounds of body weight if they are bitten).

-Treatment by a veterinarian will ALWAYS result in less disease for the patient. Absolutely, many patients will survive without veterinary treatment. But snake venom is a huge protein and huge proteins are deposited on the basement membrane of the kidneys when filtered. This leads to immune related injury to the kidneys from snake bites that may not be clinically relevant but could lead to permanent kidney damage that could affect them later in life. Intravenous fluids reduce this risk as well as keeps the patient well hydrated to get rid of the venom and reduce the toxins built up from necrotic (dead) tissue resulting from snake bites. Simply put, if you want to increase the dog’s chances of survival and less long term disease, take them to the vet.

-Moccasins are the least toxic, copperheads next (we have tons of them around here) and rattlesnakes are the worst. Moccasins may have more tissue toxicity-damage local tissue and pain-but they are the least toxic of the snakes. But they can still kill a dog.

A lot of factors play a role in the odds for the dog:

*Location of bite-nose, face, head, legs, trunk of body (best to worst)
*time of year-fall snakes have been actively feeding and have less stored venom, spring snakes have more likelihood of having stored venom from less recent feeding
*amount of injection - a miss or an oblique bite that does not get full injection
*species of snake
*size of snake (more venom = more serious)
*prior history of bites improves patients’ odds (more immune response to the venom)

-anyone, vet or otherwise, can NOT predict which dog will live and which will survive by looking at them, or even by running tests. there are just so many variables. I can often tell someone that the odds are bad or that the odds are good, but sometimes I am wrong. I still get surprised.

IV fluids are the single most important factor that we can control in helping a snake bite victim recover with the minimal amount of disease, with Benadryl being second. Some patients are going to die, no matter if they were in a veterinary University Teaching Hospital at the time of the bite and there is NOTHING that could have been done to save them. I have had patients die with 30 minutes of the bite (one was a Jack Russel bit in the side of the chest, the other was an American Bulldog bit between 5-10 times all over the body).

If you ask me, "What can I do to make the odds the best in my dog's favor that it will not die from a snake bite?", I would say:

keep benadryl in your dog first aid kit - Children's Liquid, generic is fine. Give them 1 tsp for every 12.5 pounds of body weight if they are bitten.

DO get your dog to a vet if they are bitten as soon as reasonably possible - do not be over-dramatic and get in a car accident to get there, but do not stop at the dry cleaners on the way either. Proceed with due haste."

 

[MuleyFever]

E collar work or me on my rambunctious lab

Did you follow a training plan from someone or how did you go about it? Trying not to make interactions with other dogs unpleasant as to not cause aggression. He just looses it trying to get to other dogs he sees within about 30 yds.

 

[GotDraw?]

My brother had his dog trained in Phoenix or Flagstaff- can't recall which. Dog has ZERO interest in snakes.

Trainer said some dogs even avoid coiled garden hoses...

 

[87TT]

Did you follow a training plan from someone or how did you go about it? Trying not to make interactions with other dogs unpleasant as to not cause aggression. He just looses it trying to get to other dogs he sees within about 30 yds.

The collar I have has been used on 4? dogs now. There are instructions that came with it. It has a vibrate, nick and constant mode. Plus like 15 levels. Mostly now if I put it on her, she behaves with now correction or just the vibrate. I only use it when she needs a refresher. I have even fooled her by displaying my flip phone and threatening to "use" it if she doesn't behave, Basically you use the correction up to the level needed to stop the unwanted behavior. You don't want to cause them pain. I have and do test the collar level on my fingers. (but then I am crazy and a former electrician)
The snake training I leave to someone else.

 

[MallardSX2]

I live in fear every day that my family dog will be bitten. The neighbors boxer was killed in the fall by a rattlesnake. We have timber-rattlers here. There is no vaccine for them that I am aware of.

 

[Magnum61]

Maybe this will help -

My father and I have trained bird dogs for over 30 years.

A vet told us when I was very young to carry bleach and cue tips. Soak the cue tips and shove them into the wound and hold for a min and then reapply. We’ve used it many times and even on bee stings. Nothing will swell and the wound will turn slightly brown.

I’ve used it on myself with great success for a long time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[87TT]

Maybe this will help -

My father and I have trained bird dogs for over 30 years.

A vet told us when I was very young to carry bleach and cue tips. Soak the cue tips and shove them into the wound and hold for a min and then reapply. We’ve used it many times and even on bee stings. Nothing will swell and the wound will turn slightly brown.

I’ve used it on myself with great success for a long time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You get snake bit that much?

 

[Terrancethelonghorn]

Haven’t done the training with my 2 labs but they are both kept up to date on the Rattlesnake vaccinations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jmez]

Below is the article I was sent. Just looking for real world feedback... ???

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Snake Bite Season: Liquid Benadryl (Children's) 1 mg per Lb body Weight......
Teaspoon = 12.5 LBS Body Weight.
Keep it on hand if your in Snake Country......almost as fast as injection. (Still get them to the Vet as quickly as possible)

BENADRYL FOR SNAKE BITES

This article was written by a veterinarian of the United Waterfowlers Forum.
(http://unitedwaterfowlersfl.org/forum/showthread.php?t=24045&highlight=BENADRYL+SNAKE+BITES ) Post #9

"First, let me say that I have been a vet for 23 years in N Florida. We treat probably an average of 15 snake bites a year. That would translate to over 300 snake bite cases I have treated, or been involved in. So my opinions are not based on what happened to one dog, or my neighbor's dog or even the 2 dogs that have been bitten that I personally owned. So not only have I treated a lot, but since I do treat so many, I stay current with current treatment options and what works best (based on data, not stories).

So, here goes with some absolutes about snakes. The things that follow are facts that I have either observed or read or both.


-There is no magic time for how long until treatment. get them there as soon as you safely can. I have saved dogs that were bitten 24 hours prior and had patients die that I saw within 30 minutes. The exception is if there is a bite to the tongue or inside of mouth that may cause breathing issues. I have never seen a bite to the nose cause life threatening breathing issues.

-You do not need to make any effort whatsoever to "get the snake" to take it to the vet. If it is poisonous and causes swelling, we know what to do. The only other poisonous snake in FL is the coral and it does not cause swelling. Unless it is some released species and we will not have antivenin anyway.

-Antivenin (antivenom) is NOT an antidote (meaning it cures). I rarely give it anymore. There are situations where I think it is best to give it, but I have found very little prediction of survival based on antivenin administration. There are some cases that are so bad, you had better use everything you have (bites to the trunk (body) of small dogs or cats).

-Benadryl (Diphenhydramine) is NEVER wrong to give and almost always, if not always, will help the patient. The liquid is nearly as fast as an injection. 1mg per pound of body weight (or Children's Liquid, generic is fine - 1 tsp for every 12.5 pounds of body weight if they are bitten).

-Treatment by a veterinarian will ALWAYS result in less disease for the patient. Absolutely, many patients will survive without veterinary treatment. But snake venom is a huge protein and huge proteins are deposited on the basement membrane of the kidneys when filtered. This leads to immune related injury to the kidneys from snake bites that may not be clinically relevant but could lead to permanent kidney damage that could affect them later in life. Intravenous fluids reduce this risk as well as keeps the patient well hydrated to get rid of the venom and reduce the toxins built up from necrotic (dead) tissue resulting from snake bites. Simply put, if you want to increase the dog’s chances of survival and less long term disease, take them to the vet.

-Moccasins are the least toxic, copperheads next (we have tons of them around here) and rattlesnakes are the worst. Moccasins may have more tissue toxicity-damage local tissue and pain-but they are the least toxic of the snakes. But they can still kill a dog.

A lot of factors play a role in the odds for the dog:

*Location of bite-nose, face, head, legs, trunk of body (best to worst)
*time of year-fall snakes have been actively feeding and have less stored venom, spring snakes have more likelihood of having stored venom from less recent feeding
*amount of injection - a miss or an oblique bite that does not get full injection
*species of snake
*size of snake (more venom = more serious)
*prior history of bites improves patients’ odds (more immune response to the venom)

-anyone, vet or otherwise, can NOT predict which dog will live and which will survive by looking at them, or even by running tests. there are just so many variables. I can often tell someone that the odds are bad or that the odds are good, but sometimes I am wrong. I still get surprised.

IV fluids are the single most important factor that we can control in helping a snake bite victim recover with the minimal amount of disease, with Benadryl being second. Some patients are going to die, no matter if they were in a veterinary University Teaching Hospital at the time of the bite and there is NOTHING that could have been done to save them. I have had patients die with 30 minutes of the bite (one was a Jack Russel bit in the side of the chest, the other was an American Bulldog bit between 5-10 times all over the body).

If you ask me, "What can I do to make the odds the best in my dog's favor that it will not die from a snake bite?", I would say:

keep benadryl in your dog first aid kit - Children's Liquid, generic is fine. Give them 1 tsp for every 12.5 pounds of body weight if they are bitten.

DO get your dog to a vet if they are bitten as soon as reasonably possible - do not be over-dramatic and get in a car accident to get there, but do not stop at the dry cleaners on the way either. Proceed with due haste."

Not sure what to say other than that is full of bad information.

I stay current with current treatment options and what works best (based on data, not stories).

There is no data anywhere that would support or purport the use of Benadryl for snake bites. Benadryl is an anit histamine, snake bites have little to nothing to do with histamines. The venom is a hemotoxin with enzymes that cause tissue destruction, none of which are histamine mediated.

There is only one treatment that is undisputed and scientifically proven, anti venin. It neutralizes the toxins in the venom. The biggest issue is cost, it is expensive to treat with a sufficient dose to be effective.

Not much of anything he says in that article is correct.

 

[Magnum61]

You get snake bit that much?

Washington rock country is loaded. And they are small with a faint rattle. Most of the time it’s the other guys dogs that haven’t seen a chukar hill or volcanic quail coulees.

There is just enough water to support mice and then combo is there, it’s snake city.

Talk to the guys hunting NE Oregon for elk in September and Unit 11 Idaho. That country can be a snake pit if you find the right canyon

If you get into the Grand Ronde area in WA. I’ve had friends walk through waist high grass and it sounds like someone is hitting his boots with a switch, randomly. You wouldn’t find me in there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Buckshotaz]

We adopted an 8 year old black lab. She is a very happy dog that will swim for hours for her tennis balls. I noticed that if she dropped her ball, to do her business, she had a hard time finding it again, she just couldn't smell it.

Two weeks ago, we took her to snake avoidance training. She flunked the smell test, the trainer worked hard on sight training, but that only works when she can see the snake.

We will need to keep an eye out for snakes.

 

[idcuda]

Not sure what to say other than that is full of bad information.

There is no data anywhere that would support or purport the use of Benadryl for snake bites.

Not much of anything he says in that article is correct.

Any evidence to support that? The almighty Google broadly supports benadryl as a good option to help the dog while on the way to a vet. The supposed vet in the article also clearly states that the immediate, and most important, action is to get to a vet. Benadryl won't cure the dog but it can only help.

Just curious as to what the real answer is - I sure as hell don't know.

 

[elkduds]

My experience: Rescued Vizsla we trained w beep/shock collar to come, to leave waterfowl alone on walks, not fight w aggressive other dogs off leash. Irony is that the dog was so gunshy she wouldn't hunt but would swim after waterfowl like there was nothing else in the world. She hated being shocked, level 2 was the highest we ever used. She paid a lot of attention to the beep tone alone, really focused up and minded.

After a couple years w the collar we moved to geography that hosts snakes. We started encountering bull snaked on off-leash walks. I took advantage of the situation and gave her an instant level 1 shock when she was in front of a snake on the trail. She yelped and came to heel. That was it. After that she avoided snakes and sticks that resembled snakes entirely. She was timid to walk past spots on trails where she had encountered snakes previously. Off trail she would stop and look for guidance when there was a snake. She never needed any refreshing, the rest of her 14 years.

We lost her 3 months ago. I miss her every day.

 

[jmez]

A pubmed search, the world wide database for peer reviewed medical literature, gives 9 articles for diphenhydramine ( benadryl) and snake bite. 8 of them human articles dealing with anaphylactic reactions to anti venin, the other a study in dogs that showed no benefit.

Go to NCBI/ pubmed and do a search.



Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk

 

[Matt W.]

Maybe this will help -

My father and I have trained bird dogs for over 30 years.

A vet told us when I was very young to carry bleach and cue tips. Soak the cue tips and shove them into the wound and hold for a min and then reapply. We’ve used it many times and even on bee stings. Nothing will swell and the wound will turn slightly brown.

I’ve used it on myself with great success for a long time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not sure what to say other than that is full of bad information.



There is no data anywhere that would support or purport the use of Benadryl for snake bites. Benadryl is an anit histamine, snake bites have little to nothing to do with histamines. The venom is a hemotoxin with enzymes that cause tissue destruction, none of which are histamine mediated.

There is only one treatment that is undisputed and scientifically proven, anti venin. It neutralizes the toxins in the venom. The biggest issue is cost, it is expensive to treat with a sufficient dose to be effective.

Not much of anything he says in that article is correct.

Good to know. I am going to have a conversation with the vet next month when we do our next appointment, but was curious as to how or why Benadryl might work.

 

[Wellsdw]

One thing about Benadryl and administering it , is that aside from drowsiness has almost no side affects and huge benefits for stopping allergic reactions and probably should be in any back country first aid kit. Plus it’s cheap! One of the common causes of fatal snake bites from generally non fatal snakes is anaphylactic shock. Just like some people react to bees in this manner on top of pain and swelling at the sting bite site.
Benadryl is this solution to reverse the swelling to the air way. Epi pens are the solution to temporarily stopping they symptoms of a reaction. Benadryl reverses it.
Per my agencies protocols Benadryl should be administered whenever epi is delivered As soon as the patient can swallow or given sublingually.
I really can’t imagine any contraindications for administering Benadryl to a dog bitten by a snake, he’ll even a bee sting for that matter