Smaller Bore Match Bullets for Brown Bear or Moose (and other big critters)

[jhm2023]

It's always a good idea to do stress shoots and practice under duress. Even better if it's on video so you can see how goofy you look and correct things you didn't realize you were doing.

 

[Formidilosus]

Idk what to tell you, I’m consistently between 1.35 and 1.75 seconds between aimed shots

It's always a good idea to do stress shoots and practice under duress. Even better if it's on video so you can see how goofy you look and correct things you didn't realize you were doing.

I will start a thread for this.


Here it is-

Charging bear/timed shooting drill

Another thread started discussing how fast people can shoot and hit with a bolt action rifle- specifically close range/bear charging type of shooting. This is a thread to get members to do cold, on demand shooting to see what skill level people are. The drill: Requires an electronic shot...

rokslide.com

 

[mustelid_master]

Tagging in w/ interest.

I think the fallacy is saying your evidence is valid, but the evidence seen by every bear killed by someone with a bigger rifle is somehow not. Every dead bear is an experiment. Every dead bear killed by every caliber imaginable has been seen in Alaska - every one is evidence of what works and what doesn’t. Discounting something that doesn’t agree with you, just because it doesn’t agree with you is silly.

The 223 thread is very much an echo chamber - you guys are so wrapped up in your own world that nobody is interested in listening to anything that doesn’t fall in line with with the crowd. It’s impressive what you’ve been able to show with the 223, but the constant belittling of larger calibers only gets you so far.

A 40 gr .22 lr bullet has killed many bears, but it doesn’t make it a good choice.

Based on the accuracy of the people who have actually shot charging bears, the idea that all you need is one accurate shot, is more than a little optimistic - people don’t function well under stress, they just don’t.

No dog in the fight, however, I think it is worth mentioning that lots of bears being shot with larger calibers is evidence of what works, but is not evidence of what does not work.

 

[S-3 ranch]

Tagging in w/ interest.

No dog in the fight, however, I think it is worth mentioning that lots of bears being shot with larger calibers is evidence of what works, but is not evidence of what does not work.

Yeah I agree here is a little pudding
“”300g A-Frame. This bullet hit my brown bear at 13 yards, close enough so I could see the entrance hole spurt blood before the scope recoiled out of view. It entered at the right shoulder and ended up in the hide of the left thigh after penentrating the bear diagonally.“”

 

[Luke S]

Well I tried the bear charge drill and my second shot time with the A15 6.5 Grendal is noticeably faster then my bolt action 308. I need a shot timer for real numbers but it was clearly faster. Manipulating the bolt is the hang up (duh). I can improve on that but onlyto a point. I don't have my .375 with me currently so I didn't test it. I assume the recoil recovery will make it slower still.

Other lesson was that the safety on my 308 was slower coming off compared to the AR.

So a hunting shot at a resting bear can be any reasonable caliber. A charging bear is arguably easier to stop with a quick shooting AR or at least a bolt you can run faster the an old express rifle. I might skip past that 308 and use my 6.5 Grendal for most everything.

 

[bpctcb]

If it was my hunt with my kids I would run some 200 grain Partitions in a 308 and feel good about it.

BP

 

[ThunderJack49]

I’d trust the judgement of someone who’s full time career revolves around killing bears. Simply look to the bear guides, and fish and wildlife guys who take care of wounded or misbehaving bears. I find it laughable that some think the 223 is the ideal choice against bears - it will obviously kill one under good conditions, so will a 17 Rem. The entire 223 thread was based on the idea a big fast magnum was overkill - ask a professional if they feel they are over killing.

I’ve only personally talked bear rifles with two guys who kill them as part of their job. One shoots them from his pickup in open country and uses a 30-06. The other gets the call to sort out coastal bears under less than ideal conditions and used a 375 H&H for many years and upgraded to a 416 Rem mag.

A guy I worked with on a fire crew drew the long straw and got to help remove a bear attack victim from Yellowstone - years later I saw a photo in the accident report - the image of the remains has always been sobering. Usually we see pictures of the scratched up guy who survived and has a lot of stitches. When you’re killed for dinner, they eat the organs and rip open the rib cage.

Google “bear attack victim body” and there are a few good pics of partially eaten bodies.

I also don’t buy the idea that a big caliber can’t be shot accurately or quickly. My iron sighted 375 H&H with Brown Precision Pounder stock was under 7 lbs so recoil was brisk, but quickly shooting 12 gauge shotgun hulls offhand at 10-20 yards was quite doable by normal guys.

Shoot what makes sense to you - the Darwin Award is alive and well.

So, not to get into a pissing contest here, but I made the AR15 suggestion having seen with my own eyes what happens when a grizzly kills a man. Secondly, we are talking defense of life/family so in my mind the only scenario is, I am standing between an aggressive bear and someone I'm defending, putting as many rounds into that bear as I possibly can to turn it before it gets on top of one of us. All rounds kill, obviously. All of my reasonings before are based off of that. This is the internet so take any of that for what it's worth.

 

[FCCDerek]

Okay I’ve read the 223 thread (I think I read it all, it took a while). I’m convinced the .223 will do the job for normal big game hunting in the US.

Now, I hunt grizzlies in Alaska and always used a .375 Ruger. It has a 16 inch barrel and I’ve downloaded it a bit (260 grain Nosler Partition about about 2500 fps) so it is very manageable as “bear guns” go. More importantly than hunting is the fact that this rifle is my backup gun when I take my kids and friend’s kids hunting and we might get into a rodeo with a grizzly, either because of a charge or because a kid makes a bad shot.

For anything besides grizzlies we have used a 308, 358, and occasionally a few other calibers. There always seemed to be a clear “step up” in performance when I compared the 308, 358 and 375 using traditional lead bullets. As the bullet diameter goes up you get more wounding. So the logic was always that I would use the .375 in scary situations because it would make the widest wound of the three and punch through the most bear.

After reading the .223 thread I’m wondering about changing my approach. My question is what would I give up over the 375 if I drop down to the 308 as a bear defense gun?

Based on the 223 thread I assume a 168 grain ELDM or ELDX will make a mess of a bear’s chest cavity with a broadside shot. I’m assuming that will be at least as effective as my .375 with traditional bullets. So broadside HUNTING shots, a .308 would be safe (and probably other calibers but I have a .308 I like). I’m interested in reports of such kills but its not news that a broadside hit with a smaller caliber has dropped many grizzlies.

What gives me more pause is potentially losing penetration if I move away from the heavier bullets. I know a big caliber won’t kill a bear from any angle with a bad shot. Will a .308 match bullet punch through a grizzly shoulder? How about a skull shot. Nose on, a 30-30 will work I know. Head down right into the skull? For reference the bear in my avatar was shot in the shoulder. He rolled over and I made a between the eyes shot with my .375 (his head was angled down, normally that would be too high). The bear dropped instantly but the bullet never exited the base of the skull. Makes me wonder if a lighter bullet would have done the job. Again this is not just hunting, I want the best I can get if a kid's life is on the line. I can handle recoil for a 5 yard shot but why bother if something else is as good.

So fire away. Anyone kill a grizzly with a small caliber and match bullets? What about less then ideal shots? What bullets would give the best performance? I have 168 ELDMs so that is the "easy button." I could probably handload something else if it was significantly better.

I've got a pretty solid load with a 200gr Gameking in 308. Out of a 16" Ruger Gunsite Scout its doing almost 2300fps. I'm quite confident for a close in brush gun it would handle anything in north America for a quick reaction shot assuming you put that bullet where it needs to go. Thats my go to for dense timber and brush in north idaho. I've also got a 155TMK load for it that is incredibly accurate, and I'm quite sure it would settle a bears hash without issue. I ran into a Grizzly a few years back when I was black bear hunting, and I had a 280AI with 155 Absolute Hammers at 3100fps in it, as well as a long slide Dan Wesson 10mm. I know I was adequately armed, but seeing it close up (about 30 feet) was pretty nerve wracking.