Smaller Bore Match Bullets for Brown Bear or Moose (and other big critters)

[Ozarkansas]

Lol. You should buy a shot timer

I am. I have about a 1.5 second average gap between shots using a shot timer. I can go from low ready to 2 rounds downrange in around 3 seconds. granted, this was with a .243, I’m .1-.2 seconds slower per shot with my 6.5x55, and who knows how I would do with a magnum. But I’m also probably not that fast compared to the average guy on this forum

 

[TML75]

The fact that you have actually timed yourself puts you above average on this forum. That’s not meant as a dig on anyone; very few guys get off the bench and practice realistic hunting scenarios.

 

[Formidilosus]

I think the fallacy is saying your evidence is valid, but the evidence seen by every bear killed by someone with a bigger rifle is somehow not. Every dead bear is an experiment. Every dead bear killed by every caliber imaginable has been seen in Alaska - every one is evidence of what works and what doesn’t. Discounting something that doesn’t agree with you, just because it doesn’t agree with you is silly.

What are talking about? Legitimately- what are you talking about? What is written above is circular- there is no evidence being presented by you or anyone else, just opinion that follows no logical train. So what exactly am I dismissing? Where have I stated that a certain caliber won’t kill a bear?

The 223 thread is very much an echo chamber - you guys are so wrapped up in your own world that nobody is interested in listening to anything that doesn’t fall in line with with the crowd. It’s impressive what you’ve been able to show with the 223, but the constant belittling of larger calibers only gets you so far.

Please point out the belittling of larger cartridges- quote the posts that are “belittling”. I can almost guarantee you that I shoot more magnum rounds in a single year than you will in your life. I have killed hundreds of game animals with magnums, and continue to. The only elk I have shot this year was with a “magnum”.

Based on the accuracy of the people who have actually shot charging bears, the idea that all you need is one accurate shot, is more than a little optimistic - people don’t function well under stress, they just don’t.

So you’re agreeing with what I wrote?

 

[49ereric]

06 with 220’s has been the average choice forever but if you have the means then bigger is better for brown bears.
black bears a .308 works fine here in Mn.
if I could afford to hunt bears then I can afford a 9.3x62 minimum imo.

 

[Formidilosus]

Respectfully, I doubt it takes anyone in this forum 3 seconds to work a bolt and place another shot with pie plate accuracy at bear-charge distance. I imagine the average time between shots would be less than 2 seconds, and skilled shooters would be around 1 second.

1 second splits with a bolt action to hit a target at close range?

That tells me you haven’t used a shot timer with people and bolt actions.

I’m not an expert on stopping bear charges, but I don’t think any animal can do anything other than drag its butt after getting its pelvis (or both femurs) shattered, and if you break both humeruses (humeri?) it’s going to plow its head into the ground. So yeah, they’ll continue locomotion, but I’d still argue that those are “charge stopping” injuries

No those aren’t charge stopping injuries- they may be charge stopping, or they may not. Got anything other than CNS and you are hoping, disrupt the CNS and you know.


In any case let’s examine that- the “pelvis”, “femur”, and “humerus”. In a bear, what diameter is the pelvis? What diameter is a femur? What diamter is a humerus? Ignoring how small (relatively) those targets are, and the fact that you want to use a cartridge and bullets that create very narrow wounds- don’t will require a direct hit to effect those bones; how are you going to hit both humerus in a charge? How are you going to hit both femurs in a charge? How are you going to break the pelvic girdle in two places in a charge?


Then when you answer all those questions (hint- you won’t do them), ask why wouldn’t you just shoot “insert whatever animal” in the face being that it’s charging you- face first with an 8-12” target?

Yes, a CNS shot is preferable, but I can see the appeal of having a gun that will shatter every bone it hits for 3+ feet of penetration in the event you miss the head.

What bones does it hit? The magical angle where a humerus and a femur is lined up? Those two “massive” 1.5” diameter rods that you need to get lined up perfectly at the moment of impact, and have a bullet that penetrates both with no deviation or deflection- oh and the gear is charging, so you actually have to miss the body mostly and just skim down the side to hit both…. I mean yes it’s possible. But extremely unlikely, and when it doesn’t work that way the extreme vast majority of time, you are left with a rifle that recoils heavily, and bullets that create narrow wounds.

 

[Formidilosus]

I am struggling with this topic as I have seen the 223 with match bullets work exceptionally well on whitetail. Numerous DRT stops or a one jump flop traveling less than 20 yards. However, I have seen the same bullet or a NBT fail with hogs over 200lbs. Same shot location. Just behind the shoulder through ribs and chest cavity with intent to have bullet strike off side shoulder joint. I have had numerous hogs, boars and sows. Run 100+ yrds after this shot. The animal died during that 100yrd run. But I wonder would I want to have to wrestle with it for the same amount of time it took to run the 100 yrds before it died. Could the hide and depth of the fat play a major role in how quickly the animal is incapacitated ? These are out of the same rifle in fact same box of ammo. Certainly something worth discussing as long as I have woodford reserve to counsel me.

And hogs don’t run when shot with larger calibers?

 

[Formidilosus]

Thanks for the detailed response Form. Just to clarify, I think you are assuming I was referring to an AR10. My favorite hunting rifle is a Rugar Scout .308 with a properly mounted Trijicon scope (not a silly scout scope).

Ah. Yes, I would still rather have a 308 bolt action than a 375 H&H bolt action. 168gr TMK’s, ELD-M’s, etc.

 

[Luke S]

Form I have 168 ELDMs ready to try. Any point in going heavier?

Oh another bear story. A friend broke his 300 Weatherby scope on a moose hunt. A 6 foot grizzly came charging in to his moose call. He shot the grizzly with his wife's 308 and a 178 gr ELDX. It was a gut shot but the bear slowed down. Follow up shot through the chest finished things. At least one exited. At the time I thought it was kind of a fluke. Now i think maybe his backup gun was better.

My .375 is a Ruger with a 16 inch barrel. About 6.5 pounds bare and just under 8 with the Trijicon. Pretty handy but kick is brutal. I downloaded it a bit so the recoil is more manageable.

 

[Formidilosus]

I wonder how much the hairy coat of a good brownie plays in bullet expansion. Not much like a deer or elk hide.

Almost none. Hair/fur does not materially effect a bullet.

I am. I have about a 1.5 second average gap between shots using a shot timer. I can go from low ready to 2 rounds downrange in around 3 seconds. granted, this was with a .243, I’m .1-.2 seconds slower per shot with my 6.5x55, and who knows how I would do with a magnum. But I’m also probably not that fast compared to the average guy on this forum

I have seen a lot of shooters on shot timers. The amount of American hunters/shooters that can make a hit on an 8” target at 7 yards in 1.5 seconds, and then have a 1.5 sec split reloading and hitting again with a bolt action could fit in an average living room- those that can do it with a large bore cartridge could probably fit in a bathroom.
The worlds best bolt action shooters are just under 1 sec splits using their thumb and trigger finger on the bolt handle, and middle finger to press the trigger- with relatively low recoiling rifles.

 

[Formidilosus]

Form I have 168 ELDMs ready to try. Any point in going heavier?

Nope.

 

[jhm2023]

I think an acceptable cartridge for a calm bear is a lot different than what would be acceptable to physically stop a determined and charging bear and save your life or someone else's. Mind you that I've never killed a brown bear but I've killed and seen killed my share of interior grizz and my favorite cartridge for them is a somewhat fast stepping 7mm with a 140-160gr. all copper bullet such as Hammer or Barnes. I've been trying to let the air out of a grizz inside of 50 yards with a 5.56 using 62gr Lehigh controlled chaos bullets, unfortunately the opportunity just hasn't presented itself yet. Maybe this year. I also really enjoy suppressed 300 blackout for shooting black bears up close over bait. This past spring there was a young grizz on my bait and I Iaid him out with surprising effectiveness with the little 300 blackout using a 115gr copper bullet from a 10 inch barrel. I've also been charged by 2 grizz and one large black bear, the 2 grizz I shot with a 454 casull and the black bear with my bow.

That said, not a ton of experience, but I guess enough to have somewhat of a valid opinion on the matter. If I know I will be backing someone up or venturing into thick brush intentionally targeting grizz, I would personally feel best with a minimum of a 30 cal magnum with 180gr or heavier copper bullets, though 250gr 338 bullets really tickle my fancy for this purpose.

 

[Luke S]

I just ran a dry fire drill with my phone camera to mark time. About 3 sec to get 2 shots off BUT I said dry fire, no recoil and not hitting a target. I suspect hitting a target would slow things down. But I did dry fire a lot when I was single and bored in the winter so while I'm no expert I'm probably faster than your average deer hunter. Somewhere I have a GoPro footage of a bear hunt with a shot and a pretty quick follow up. I should look around for that for a real world measure of my speed (or lack thereof).

I did experiment with the middle finger firing method. I think I read about Australians using it in World War I somewhere. Seems pretty fast.

 

[Ozarkansas]

Let’s just drop the whole “breaking bones” conversation, I only brought it up as a counterpoint to this:

The only way to physiologically incapacitate (stop) a living creature immediately is by disrupting the CNS

Nobody would claim that breaking both femurs is a likely scenario, or that you should aim for the pelvis. My only point is that those are injuries that would immediately incapacitate a charging animal

1 second splits with a bolt action to hit a target at close range?

That tells me you haven’t used a shot timer with people and bolt actions

I posted my personal splits further up the thread, those are timed, aimed splits with scoped bolt actions. I assumed I’m middle of the pack in terms of this and that we’ll-trained guys would be close to 1 second, particularly with open sights, but I honestly don’t know

 

[jhm2023]

I do dry fire practice a lot using my bear mounts as aiming points. With actual live fire, using an autoloading pistol like 460 Rowland or 10mm, I can generally have 4-5 rounds in the a zone of an ipsc target at 10 yards before the first piece of brass hits the ground. I'm too cheap to buy a shot timer. I haven't tried a live fire speed drill on a timer with a bolt gun yet. the nice thing about using bear mounts as an aiming point and also practice aiming at live bears when they are milling about is when / then thinking. The body can't go where the mind hasn't been.

 

[S-3 ranch]

Form I have 168 ELDMs ready to try. Any point in going heavier?

Oh another bear story. A friend broke his 300 Weatherby scope on a moose hunt. A 6 foot grizzly came charging in to his moose call. He shot the grizzly with his wife's 308 and a 178 gr ELDX. It was a gut shot but the bear slowed down. Follow up shot through the chest finished things. At least one exited. At the time I thought it was kind of a fluke. Now i think maybe his backup gun was better.

My .375 is a Ruger with a 16 inch barrel. About 6.5 pounds bare and just under 8 with the Trijicon. Pretty handy but kick is brutal. I downloaded it a bit so the recoil is more manageable.

Yep a 6.5 lbs 375 will kick about 60lbs of recoil but I would prefer a heavy for caliber and bonded bullet , 30 cal + or a slug gun at minimum
imo eldx and .308win don’t make a good combo for heavy boned animals
if they would stabilize in a .308 220gr maybe?
dont be a fool or listen to fool & paper tiger/ keyboard warriors as most if put into a dangerous animal situation will be grabbing a heavy caliber, heavy for caliber bullets over a lite caliber & lite for caliber.

 

[Ozarkansas]

Idk what to tell you, I’m consistently between 1.35 and 1.75 seconds between aimed shots

although the wine box I was shooting at is bigger than a pie plate and I was at 10 yards, and my time from low ready to first shot can vary quite a bit

 

[Luke S]

Yeah I downloaded it to where it was about 42 pounds of recoil. But I think my heavier Trijicon scope took recoil down too to like 37 pounds. Still getting about 2520 with a 260 bullet. But that is more like 35 Whelen performance. A long barrel fully maxed out 375 Ruger should be throwing those bullets more like 2720 fps. So I'm not as handicapped as you might think when you hear "375." It's not a 10 pound safari rifle. But it's not as powerful either.
Like I said I'll switch slow. I'd be happy to find out a .308 or .223 is all I need. But I'll get some real world experience before burning bridges. But a LOT of people and not just here are getting good results with those ELDX and similar bullets.

 

[S-3 ranch]

Yeah I downloaded it to where it was about 42 pounds of recoil. But I think my heavier Trijicon scope took recoil down too to like 37 pounds. Still getting about 2520 with a 260 bullet. But that is more like 35 Whelen performance. A long barrel fully maxed out 375 Ruger should be throwing those bullets more like 2720 fps. So I'm not as handicapped as you might think when you hear "375." It's not a 10 pound safari rifle. But it's not as powerful either.
Like I said I'll switch slow. I'd be happy to find out a .308 or .223 is all I need. But I'll get some real world experience before burning bridges. But a LOT of people and not just here are getting good results with those ELDX and similar bullets.

I would not trust a eldx as I have never seen one not have core separation
large caliber + bonded + high sectional density = dangerous game load
375 300gr Afram , woodliegh , DGX bonded, nosler partion, barns tsx

your load data

 

[Luke S]

I used that data but I only have 71 gr of powder for my load (Varget) and the full rifle weight was 7.5 pounds with a Leopold scope and rings. I've since gone to a Trijicon scope so the rifle is approaching 8 pounds ready to go. So recoil is a lot less.

 

[Formidilosus]

Idk what to tell you, I’m consistently between 1.35 and 1.75 seconds between aimed shots
View attachment 663957
although the wine box I was shooting at is bigger than a pie plate and I was at 10 yards, and my time from low ready to first shot can vary quite a bit

It’s not hard to pull off a couple of shots when you are relaxed and on your own. With other people standing by, walk up and do a sub 1 sec 1 shot and a 1 to 1.5 sec split- 5 to 10 times in a row? Not so much.