“Small-caliber philosophy” for shotguns?

[yeky83]

New hunter here, I’ve been reading and listening to a lot of the small caliber content from Form and others and learning a lot.

I thought I’d just be a big game rifle guy, but I’m wanting to try my hand at it all! So in looking at shotguns, I wondered if there’s a similar education to be had for shotguns.

With shotguns, the conventional wisdom seems to be that you need a certain amount of weight and barrel length for stability, and a larger bore as one can handle for denser pattern performance. Typically, all that a lighter, lower gauge shotgun is considered good for is being easier to carry around.

But being new to it all, it doesn’t quite make sense to me why one needs all that barrel length to shoot at things at a relatively close distance. And “I suck” has still got to be a factor, so dense patterns of a larger bore be damned if you’ve got low recoil and are shooting accurately with a small bore, no?

But then to get to that 6 ft-lb recoil range, it seems a .410 is needed and that seems… way too small? Does the small caliber, lower recoil stuff hold up when it comes to shotguns, or is it a different ball game?

 

[rabbithuntr]

I’ve never really used a 410 but I have had as good of luck shooting my 20 ga as I have my 12 ga. Be interesting to see what others say.

 

[lil' bear]

Longer barrels are only for balance. It creates a smooth swing on crossing birds. Otherwise all powder is burnt in the first 12 inches of the barrel. Also a standard 12 gauge load is 1 ounce. A heavy 20 gauge load is 1 ounce. There's really no reason to carry a 12. I've shot everything and then some with a 20. Your choke determines the pattern. The only real debate between gauges is shot string. A narrow bore creates longer string. A wider bore creates a flatter pattern. Depending on your target one could argue either is better.
Personally I use 20 for everything.

 

[hereinaz]

Tungsten payloads with smaller shot size increase both distance and density on target.

Patterning and practice are just as important. I don’t know if there is a small caliber equivalent type argument, but a well fit shotgun and practice makes a huge difference.

I think a 20 gauge with tungsten can do some good stuff almost replacing a 12 gauge with less recoil. Turkey hunters are killing at long ranges with T and .410.

 

[atmat]

I’ve never really used a 410 but I have had as good of luck shooting my 20 ga as I have my 12 ga. Be interesting to see what others say.

410’s are harder to hunt with. 28ga is a better light load shotty.

 

[bullmtn]

For waterfowl I use 12 gauge 3" 1 1/4oz #2 for everything from teal to late season honkers, my friend has killed a whole ton of snow geese with a 20 gauge, and I haven't seen a 410 out there yet, but two years ago I threatened to bring the tennis racket out there to beat the snows off of us. I would get a quality gas 12-gauge 28inch barrel 3" receiver and be done with it, if you want to go the tungsten and bismuth route for a smaller/lighter gun that would work great in a 20 gauge. My SX4 gets around 2000 hunting loads through it a year ranging from pigeon to turkeys, I don't feel like it's too heavy for hiking after Snake River Chukar.

 

[Steve300xcw]

Soon as I picked up a 20ga, my 12's got parked. 28 and 410 are to spendy for me, and I have better things to do than reload for a shotgun.

12ga frame just feels big and clunky compared to a 20 frame IMO.
Longer barrels sure swing a lot nicer. I do think 26" is about perfect on a pump/semi. Though I do wonder about a 24"

 

[OneGunTex]

Put simply - No, the small caliber argument does not have a *direct* parallel with shotguns. (It arguably has an indirect parallel.)

The argument for smaller caliber rifles generally hinges on the fact that a 223/243 bullet creates an equally-deadly wound channel as a 300+ bullet, therefore go with the caliber that you can shoot better (which is statistically the lighter recoiling caliber.)

But for shotguns, larger bore typically means more pellets in the air which likewise means a more deadly (denser) pattern at a given range. This is not universally true, as has been pointed out you can get a 1oz 12ga load and a 1oz 20ga load. But with shotguns you can substantially increase your deadliness with more pellets in a way you cannot do for rifles.

It is true that you'll shoot a lighter recoiling shotgun better than a heavier recoiling one. This can make a big difference, especially for practice days shooting clays. So if I don't need the extra pellets and powder, I'll go with the lighter gun. BUT, note that my 8lb 12ga recoils less than my 6lb 20ga when shooting an equal load (e.g. 1oz of lead at 1300fps).

Also note that the small caliber rifle argument does NOT hold up if you are forced to shoot lead-free ammo, and I would argue that this is also true when shooting lead-free shotgun ammo. Unless you want to pay unaffordable prices for TSS, then the extra powder (ie velocity) is critical to make steel pellets perform as well as lead. (Bismuth is a slightly different story.)

Either way, the 12ga has its place. Arguably the 10ga has its place too - while few use them, it's hard to argue that 1 3/8oz of #2s from a 3.5" 10ga shell going 1500fps is not "more kill-y" than
1 1/8oz of #2s from a 3" 12ga shell going 1375 or 7/8oz in a 2.75" 20ga.

 

[AntelopeEater]

With a shotgun, you presumably aren't trying to be accurate at as long of distances as you would be with a big game rifle.

Also, shotguns are usually fired "off hand" from a standing position, whereas hunting rifles are often shot while prone, seated, or from shooting sticks.

I find recoil much less bothersome when standing and shooting offhand.

I also found slipping a limbsaver slip on recoil pad makes even 3" 12 gauge slugs alright to shoot recoil wise.

I've never owned a shotgun smaller than 12 gauge, and since 12 gauge works well, and the ammo is generally cheaper in 12 gauge, I'm sticking with 12.

I did have a double-barreled 10 gauge blackpowder shotgun that was a real blast to shoot just for fun, but the delay in the shot from the hammer-percussion cap action made it harder to hit moving clays or birds with as opposed to centerfire.

But I also love my .375 Ruger rifle, so I guess I'm maybe just someone who enjoys big boomsticks in general.

 

[OneGunTex]

I'm sure I've got some hate coming for sounding like a fudd yelling "more kill-y!"

I'll try to find some data on penetration with different velocities and report back.

 

[ericmcd]

I use a .410 with tungsten for turkey. If I was loaded I wouldn't hesitate to use tungsten .410 for waterfowl and upland as well. But I'm too poor for that so I'm still sticking with my 12 for now.

 

[Kurts86]

TSS and to a lesser extent Tungsten matrix ammo with smaller shot size are the closest equivalent to the small rifle caliber argument.

.410 is quite relevant with TSS in the turkey hunting space but less so with wingshooting when 28/20 gauge fill a similar role of low recoil with good terminal performance if a good patterning load and good shooter are combined.

I do see a lot of guys in the wingshooting space moving to 20 gauges and away from 3.5” 12 gauge loads. I think you can do any wingshooting task with a 20 gauge and good ammo. A heavier gas operated semiautomatic 20 gauge is usually the lightest kicking option with commonly available ammo.

Also with shotguns you can always just shoot lighter loads out of a 12 gauge. Recoil wise 1 oz 12 gauge loads are often lighter kicking out of a 7.5 lb gun than 3/4 oz out of a 6 lb 20/28 gauge.

 

[OneGunTex]

Okay found it.

https://chuckhawks.com/pellet_penetration.html

This article contains the mathematical formula for determining penetration, which I will quote:

Finally, it was expressed as P=SUT, P for penetration, S for sectional density, U for the difference between strike velocity and threshold velocity. Threshold velocity is the initial velocity required to overcome elastic resistance from skin and so forth. T is the target material, as per Euler a couple of hundred years prior.

It is the adjusted sectional density that suggests penetration levels and resultant lethality of a pellet. The weight of a #2 steel pellet is .0005022 lb. A #4 lead pellet is actually lighter at .0004629 lb. The corrected sectional density reveals that #4 lead is more lethal at .0174 vs. .0150 for #2 steel. Dzimian and the later Winchester Research data both confirm that sectional density is proportional to penetration. Both show that penetration and lethality is also essentially proportional to strike velocity.

For reference, I went to MidwayUSA and looked at all of their available lead #6 in both 12ga and 20ga. The largest/fastest available 12ga load I could find was 1 5/8oz going 1350fps. For 20ga, best I could find was 1 1/4oz going 1300fps. (Obviously, this is an apples to apples comparison. It would change if you were to compare shot with different SD. But it is fair to assume that in an oranges to oranges comparison of a different shot type, you would still be able to find larger loads in 12 than 20).

Federal Premium Wing-Shok 20 Ga Ammo 3 #6 Copper Plated Lead Shot

Wing-Shok is one of the highest velocity upland bird ammunitions out there. It also gives you tighter patterns and maximum penetration, the result from...

www.midwayusa.com

Federal Premium Prairie Storm 12 Ga Ammo 3 #6 Copper Plated Lead Shot

Federal Premium Prairie Storm FS Lead loads use the updated FLITECONTROL FLEX wad and a mixed payload of standard pellets and FLITESTOPPER lead to...

www.midwayusa.com

To demonstrate what this means, for the given 12ga load you have ~422 pellets going 756fps at 35yds and 650fps at 48yds. Likewise for the 20ga load you have ~281 pellets going 744fps at 35yds and 650fps at 44yds.

To put it in more practical terms, if you assume a consistent 1" per yard rate of expansion of the pattern in both guns (which is a false assumption that in practice varies wildly depending on both choke & shot), then with the 12ga load you'll have 100 pellets in a 20" circle at 41yds, and with the 20ga you'll have 100 pellets in a 20" circle at 33yds.

 

[rayporter]

the 28 ga is a blast.

 

[Macintosh]

Based on the question it sounds like this is one shotgun to do EVERYTHING including turkeys, geese, ducks, pheasants, grouse, quail, doves, woodcock, clays, squirrels, rabbits and who knows what else, right?

The answer is that you need either a 20ga or a 12ga. 26-28” barrel is normal. Anything else is too specialized to recommend based on the info in the original post. Nothing wrong with anything else, just not the best choice for a first/only shotgun for someone who wants to dabble in everything.

Mitigate recoil via payload and velocity. Clays or doves, shoot 7/8oz target loads in a 20, 1oz in a 12. Bump it up 1/8oz in either gauge for medium size birds and youre good to 40 yards, which is “long range” for a shotgun in the hands of 99.9% of the people out there. Tss is denser and patterns tighter as well as penetrates better and maintains velocity with smaller shot. BUT is about $12 every time you pull the trigger so imo thats ok for turkeys and makes a 20ga plenty, but very few people are willing to pay that as a new waterfowl hunter, so theres a really good argument for a 12 if much waterfowl hunting is likely because it handles larger steel shot better. If TSS becomes a lot cheaper, my answer would change for sure, but that isnt happening any time soon.

 

[False_Cast]

There’s a direct correlation. Projectiles matter. 1/2 oz 18g/cc TSS gives pattern density and pellet count in a 410 that puts the biggest 3 1/2” 12 gauge steel shot loads to shame. It’s math.

Range comparison: Steel, ITX, HeviShot, HW13, TSS

Here’s the info from KPY Ballistsics for folks to compare. I used 1450fps for all loads because that is decently achievable and is a published speed for all these, from BPI. 1000’MSL, 3…

pipesf16.wordpress.com

 

[MallardSX2]

Been shooting a .410 almost exclusively for 20 years. Double full chokes in my browning citori lighting is my go-to shotgun.

I really enjoy the .410 I buy 3” shells and get about 5 reloads out of them and then trim them down a half inch and shoot them several more times. I load my .410 pretty hot and those 3” .410 shells are on par with any 20 gauge I have ever shot even with my homemade shot.

Honestly, it feels like I’m cheating when I shoot a 12 gauge.

 

[yeky83]

To ask another beginner question...

What is it that actually kills waterfowl and small game when you shoot it with shotgun pellets?

With rifles aiming for the lungs/heart, you're depriving the animal of the blood/oxygen it needs.
With turkey shooting in the head/neck, you're doing spinal/brain damage.

But what about waterfowl where you’re shooting off hand and leading the shot and all? Is it more about injuring and rendering them unable to fly away? Or is it still about landing pellets to the vitals—I don’t think you’re bleeding them out, is it still about head/neck shots?

 

[yeky83]

Asked in another way, I’m reading you’re looking for a couple inches of pellet penetration into the waterfowl, but penetration into what part exactly? Just all over and hope it does enough damage, or something more specific?

 

[lil' bear]

Yes the method of killing is the same as big game. Put 1 pellet in the chest of a pheasant and it will fold up. Having enough mass and pellet construction help. But at the end of the day if you can put half a dozen pellets into a bird it will fall. This is why patterning a shotgun and practicing is important. Also why a .410 is plenty of gun if you have your ammo and choke working together. I've always heard the .410 Is the "masters" gauge. I know 1 ounce of lead 6 shot is like 350 pellets. And generally you want about 60% of those to land in about a 1 foot circle at your desired shooting distance. Adjust your choke to adjust the distance.