Slug vs Buck shot

[rvalleyp]

What would you choose for bear defense in grizzly country?

 

[AlabamaMountainMan]

Brenneke slugs.

 

[VernAK]

Brenneke slugs.

^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^ if limited to shotguns. Save the buckshot for your move to Chicago.

 

[go_deep]

Slugs, period. My brother runs a guide service for bears, lots of bears haven't made it more than a few feet with slugs, even from 20 gauges.

 

[JDBAK]

I’ve carried Brenneke slugs for years, but never had to use it. Until recently I would have said slug over buckshot hands down no question. Way more penetration vs shallow small holes spread too far apart.

But….all of Form’s content about wound effects has got me thinking. How much penetration do we actually need? And if using a tighter pattern buckshot load like federal flight control…and likely shooting a charging bear at under 25 yds, then it seems to me that 8-9 pellets spread over 8” penetrating 12+ inches might be the ticket.

I’d love to hear Form’s thoughts on that.

 

[Ozarkansas]

I have zero experience in grizzly country, but my experience with TSS “buckshot” loads using BB size shot has convinced me that they are one of the best options for stopping an animal at close range.

I can get 49 pellets in a 20 gauge hull. Any one of those will pass all the way through both femurs and the pelvis, or through both shoulder blades and spine, on a full grown pig. The pattern is tight enough that I doubt a bear skull would slip through a shot unscathed at 50 yards. At 25 yards nearly the whole pattern is inside a 2’x2’ square.

A semi auto 12 gauge loaded with BB, T, or #4 buck size TSS in a 3” shell would absolutely blanket a charging bear in pellets

 

[Tod osier]

I have zero experience in grizzly country, but my experience with TSS “buckshot” loads using BB size shot has convinced me that there is no better load for stopping an animal at close range. I can get 49 pellets in a 20 gauge hull. Any one of those will pass all the way through both femurs and the pelvis, or through both shoulder blades and spine, on a full grown pig. A semi auto 12 gauge loaded with BB, T, or #4 buck size TSS in a 3” shell would absolutely blanket a charging bear in pellets

No expert, but yes on that suggestion. I've always been buckshot curious for bears, but I've always deferred to the conventional wisdom and I've always carried black magics in my bear gun.

These days I'd sure investigate some TSS buckshot or T or F shot. I have just a couple boxes of slugs left and next time I need to buy ammo for my bear gun, I will for sure see what I can get to pattern in it. The penetration of the larger stuff must be insane given what TSS BBs do.

A lot of the slug suggestions are based on what LEOs use and they often have to deal with problem bears at a distance - elevating slugs compared to buckshot in non choked smoothbores (compared to the close range of and attack). We are seeing people having good success with smaller handguns, too - that were too small in the past.

For me I'd want something that is performing under 50 yards, probably 25 max, it has always seemed like buckshot should be the ticket in those situations, especially now that we can effectively double or triple or quadruple the number of pellets with large TSS shot or small TSS buck compared to a dozen lead pellets.

 

[JDBAK]

I suspect it not about the number of pellets or the the spread per se, but the synergistic effect of multiple pellets hitting “close enough” together that the temporary stretch cavity of each individual pellet overlaps with other pellets….resulting in tearing of large sections of tissue rather than just stretching it with narrow individual pellet holes. And tearing it deep enough (12”? 18”?) to matter on a charging bear.

Different scenario than if guiding or hunting and where you are shooting a bear at longer distances and not necessarily head on to you.

Whether than means BB or #1 all the way to 000 Buck, I don’t know.

 

[Legend]

I tested the pattern on buckshot out of a mossing Shockwave (super short barrel). The buckshot at 10yds wasn't much bigger of a pattern than the slug. So it seems the benefit of buckshot just isn't there.

Breneke all the way.

 

[Ozarkansas]

@JDBAK with these small pellets Idk if there’s much of a temporary stretch cavity, but the primary stopping mechanism seems to be “break every single bone in the animal”. Soft tissue damage has been pretty minimal except when bone is hit, and then it’s the bones themselves that are doing most of the damage.
These smallish pigs got killed in 3 shots, zero runners. The only pellet I recovered was lodged in the ball joint of one’s offside femur.

This bigger boar took a shot broadside at 15 yards and dropped. The only pellets that didn’t exit were the ones that broke his shoulders and humeruses (humeri?). 15 pellets made a perfect map of his shoulder bones under the offside hide. If I remember right I counted 47 pellet wounds in his front half

 

[JDBAK]

I tested the pattern on buckshot out of a mossing Shockwave (super short barrel). The buckshot at 10yds wasn't much bigger of a pattern than the slug. So it seems the benefit of buckshot just isn't there.

Breneke all the way.

It’s not primarily the pattern size, but the resulting wound once the shot enters tissue that I’m interested in.
I don’t know, but suspect that most shot would spread significantly and result in a much wider wound cavity than any slug, even if the entry pattern was 12 gauge hole sized. Much like a fragmenting bullet.

It’s been a long time since I looked at any ballistics testing on Federal flight control or the like.

 

[Wrench]

If you choose buckshot.....you better shoot him in the face. A big bear's head is half the size of one of those pigs.

 

[JDBAK]

If you choose buckshot.....you better shoot him in the face. A big bear's head is half the size of one of those pigs.

Why with buckshot shoot him in the face (vs slug)?

Seems to me if targeting the head, then I’m trying to get through the skull and hit the brain…in which case a slug would probably be better.

 

[Ozarkansas]

@JDBAK This has been talked about before on here but I imagine you want whichever option is going to give you the best chance of instantly incapacitating a bear, That means generally a brain or spine shot.

I’d be confident that my TSS buckshot loads can do that with energy to spare, and inside of 50 yards there’s a much higher likelihood of a brain or spine hit when I’m throwing out a consistent pattern of ~50 pellets with every shot instead of a single slug.

@Wrench those smaller pigs had double-digit pellet counts at 30 yards, and that boar had almost 100% of the pellets in his shoulder, neck, and head at 15. I don’t think a bear’s skull+spine is getting through that pattern


Edit: that being said I’d love to see someone do an actual ballistics gel test with BB shot and heavy bone at different ranges, so it’s not just a handful of data points

 

[JDBAK]

Bear skulls are pretty tough and not so easy to penetrate to get to the brain in my experience ….took 4 shots in the head with at 7 ft with a 10mm once to dispatch a paralyzed black bear a couple years ago. It wasn’t a lack of accuracy, just getting the angle exactly right. I doubt buckshot would have made it through. Seems there’s many similar stories.

But seems to me getting to the spine would be easier with shot.

What is TSS? I’m not familiar with that load.
I know over on Pistol-Forum.com, the most desirable load is Flight Control #1 shot (15 pellets I think).

 

[rclouse79]

If one were charging me I would opt for buckshot to the face. If I were shooting the bear off my buddy I would opt for a slug.

 

[JDBAK]

Tungsten Super Shot, found it

 

[Ozarkansas]

Bear skulls are pretty tough and not so easy to penetrate to get to the brain in my experience
What is TSS? I’m not familiar with that load.
I know over on Pistol-Forum.com, the most desirable load is Flight Control #1 shot (15 pellets I think).

Tungsten Super Shot, it’s the ultra-high density (and ultra high price) non-toxic shot that allows guys to shoot #10 shot for turkeys or goose hunt with #7s and kill at long range. The navy has also tested a canister load for their 5” guns using the BB size shot, it’ll kill kamikaze boats is you get it going fast enough.

TSS

As far as skull penetration, I’d like to see it tried on an actual bear skulls. but if it can penetrate a pig skull, femur, and humerus, I don’t see how it wouldn’t get to the brain on a bear unless it somehow deflected.

 

[Wrench]

Why with buckshot shoot him in the face (vs slug)?

Seems to me if targeting the head, then I’m trying to get through the skull and hit the brain…in which case a slug would probably be better.

Simple. It's either dead or lost the two senses that will get me killed, sight and smell.

Lower 48 bears, I don't sweat, alaskan brown bears....I have a lot more respect for.

 

[Ron.C]

On very rare occasions, I carry a defender style shotgun when solo bowhunting elk when Ive seen fresh griz sign. For me, it's slugs. And if I ever have to shoot I wouldnt stop until the gun is empty.

By the time I'd be shooting, any gains offered by a shot pattern would be negated.

The only other time I have the gun handy is at basecamp and again, its slugs.