Sighting In a Rifle With a Pencil Barrel

[AZGUY]

I inherited my dads old (pre 90's) R700 .30-.06 that has a pencil barrel and the original Redfield-Widefield scope on it. When I go to sight this in what would you guy recommend for cooling time on the barrel in between shots? I was thinking 3 rounds and a 3-4 minutes to cool?

 

[jherald]

With a thin barrel, if it's a good barrel, you should be able to shoot for 3 then give it a good cooling period in between strings, 3-5 mins is sufficient most of the time.

A lot of people take sighting in as a hurried affair. I like to enjoy it as an all day event and have time to work out any issues taking my time and being methodical versus blowing 20-30 rounds in an hour and leaving the range. Thinner barrels of quality should shoot just fine with short cooling periods.

 

[Jon Pynch]

ya, agree with above poster. lots of different answers

I would shoot 3 to get a group with a minimum of around a min between those 3 shots, then let cool. adjust scope then shoot another group till zeroed. obviously if you're 3 ft high you don't need to shoot 3 there, as 1 shot will suffice. just don't zero your gun with one shot then adjust, then another shot and adjust. shoot groups and move the center of that group to get it sighted in.

the lightest contour barrels i have right now are #4's. and i'll get pretty good vertical poi change after 3-4 shots in a hurry.

 

[aboltlrhunter]

I personally give ample cooling time between each shot. I shoot one then let the barrel cool 5-10 mins. I know I might go over board with it I just know the first shot (cold bore) in a hunting rifle is the most important, so I try to imitate that as much as possible. And I do this with load development as well. If you want to shoot a few shot group that's fine. But whenever shoot your first shot of the day make sure you pay attention to where that one hits the paper, that's the most important

P.S I heard someone say they blow down the barrel after each shot to get the hot gases out to help with cooling. I haven't tried it yet but plan to when I shoot next to see if it helps!

Trent

 

[hodgeman]

On thin barreled rifles I usually shoot three and then give it a good 15-20 mins. to cool. I also give it 2-3 minutes between shots...and I usually run a snake through it between groups.

Might seem excessive...but it's worked for me. I usually bring 3 or 4 rifles and a .22 to play with while I'm waiting. Might take all day to fire a dozen out of one rifle but sighting in is about quality as opposed to quantity.

 

[mtluckydan]

If your gun is properly bedded you should be able to shoot ten shot groups if you want. I regularly shoot five shot groups with #1 contour barrels with no wait time and they don't walk. If your groups are walking you may have an issue with how the action is bedded. How you shoot your groups with a light rifle is far more important with respect to consistency. Also, if you are shooting without a chronograph you have no idea about how consistent your velocity is and while you may blame your rifle for inconsistent groups it could be your ammo - hand loads or factory. I have scoped rifles that weight 6lbs plus or minus that group just fine with no cooling and will do so all day. I do agree that determining where the first shot with a cold barrel goes is important, but unless your rifle shoots really bad even that isn't important for hunting in most applications.

 

[GKPrice]

a "pencil barrel" rifle is gonna be a "hunting rifle" am I correct ? So, you're standing at the edge of a clearing 300 yards across at dawn of opening morning ... a really nice 6 point walks across the far edge of that clearing, you get a good hold on him and touch #1 off .... nothin' happens - so now you 1) jack another round in and put #2 where you "thought" you put #1 OR 2) you wait 2-3 minutes for the barrel to cool so you can get a good group ? ....... a light contour barrel is going to "walk" a little bit normally, as you heat it up but, at least in my opinion (and hunting experience) you should want to know what your rifle will do with whatever it holds before you need to reload it, 3,4,5 whatever it holds because most of us KNOW how fast we can get the follow up shots on their way .... -

 

[aboltlrhunter]

I should have said this originally but this is one of those questions that you will get several difference answers. I do my method of zeroing because I like to know where my first shot is gonna land every time so I try to imitate the cold bore shot. I know that every animal I shoot at will have at least one shot taken, I hope no follow up shots are needed but I know follow up shots are needed. So AFTER my rifle is needed I practice quick follow up shots and note where they land. May get some walkage you may not. Like mtluckydan said having a properly bedded rifle makes a difference. If you do indeed have a significant POI change on your on your second and third shots there's no point in using those shots as your zero because you don't know if you will need those shots every time. BUT always practice them and take note where they land. Having quality handloaded ammo with temperature stable ammo helps too. Just my method, like I said probably everyone who answers will have a different response. Good luck!

Trent

 

[AXEL]

I currently have four rifles with very thin barrels, these are my Browning O-U .308Win.x12 ga. and my Merkel 96K drillinge in 9.3x74R-12x12.

I also have a custom a HVA actioned .280Rem. with a 23 in. Kreiger at .565 muzzle in a modded Bansner.

Last is my custom Remmy Seven STS, slabbed, trued, tuned pin and trigger, custom STS barrel in 7-08 and much modded Micky Edge and its tube is VERY slender.

I just got the two bolt rifles finished last year and when sighting them, I shoot three shots only slightly slower than I might at fleeing game.

I find this gives me an accurate depiction of field conditions and my groups are fine even with factory Federal Fusion as my loading setup is still packed from a move and home renos.

Don't overthink this, sight in as you will shoot at game and then spend your time and ammo practicing from field positions.

 

[AZGUY]

Wow great info guys, thank you.

 

[Formidilosus]

"Cold bore" shifts are really cold shooter shifts. If a rifle "walks" it's shots, i.e.- shots string vertically or horizontally as it heats up, there is something wrong with the rifle and it needs work. A properly stress relieved barrel doesn't care how many shots are fired nor how fast.


3 shots are not a "group". All rifles fire in a cone, and 3 shots can be anywhere within that cone and it can and does give a false zero. It takes 10 rounds to be in the 90 percentile range of where any one round fired from a rifle will land. 3 round "groups" are why people believe in "flyers", "cold bore", and "barrel heat".


Now a solid zero is the most important task when it comes to hitting things, but taking all day to zero is... Silly.

 

[Broz]

3 shots are not a "group". All rifles fire in a cone, and 3 shots can be anywhere within that cone and it can and does give a false zero. It takes 10 rounds to be in the 90 percentile range of where any one round fired from a rifle will land. 3 round "groups" are why people believe in "flyers", "cold bore", and "barrel heat".

Could you elaborate on this please? Especially by defining this cone you speak of.

Thank you
Jeff

 

[Formidilosus]

As to the cone-

Lets say a barrel has a usable life of 2,000 rounds and say for examples sake we fire all 2,000 rounds at 100 yards on one target with no adjustments to the scope whatsoever. The entire aggregate formed by all 2,000 rounds is the cone. Or what we call the group. The size of that cone/group is the smallest target that the system will mechanically hit. Take a rifle that generally shoots 3 rounds just under 1 MOA, in reality that gun is around a 2 MOA rifle. At least for the cone.


Thinking of that cone it becomes obvious that any 3 rounds are meaningless and show very, very little of where the next round will go. Lets say we have a person who is zeroing a rifle and fires a half inch 3 round "group" centered over his aiming point. Excitedly he goes and pulls the target, puts up a new one, and then fires three more. This time one is in the bull, one just on the edge and one a bit over an inch out. Disappointedly he says he "musta pulled" it and the proclaims his rifle is "sub MOA all day long.... As long as I do my part".... When in reality it was just random that his first three hit so close and the second group was just filling in the cone. Now most will freak when I say this- but again a 1 MOA 3 round group rifle is much closer to actually being a 2 MOA rifle and any shots fired will be a random event within that cone. Take our shooter above, not only does he not know what size target the gun will hit, but in this instance those six rounds just happened to be on the left side of the cone and his zero is now off almost 1 MOA.


Statistically 3 single events are meaningless. It takes at least 10 to start being even remotely relevant. We have tested several guns that were consistent 1 MOA rifles, and shot groups using backers to catch all the rounds fired for a composite group. At the end any one of the single 3 round groups was useless- giving something around a 60% probability where any one round will land. Five round groups were barely better with around 70%. But a single ten round group was fairly indicative giving higher than 90% of where any round would go. It took 5 three round groups on the same target to be 90%, 3 five round groups to be 90%, and 1 ten round group to be over 90%. That is 90% of round fired will stay on _____ size target. Two 10 round groups on the same target or one 20 round group gets it into the 98+ % range.

We see it all the time when 3 round "groups" are fired back to back, and yet they are not in quite the same location.

A rifle is only as accurate as the target that it will consistently hit. If it's a .5MOA rifle at 100 yards then it will put every round fired into a half inch dot at 100 yards. If you can't take your "sub MOA all day long" rifle and keep every round fired on a sub MOA target, then it should be evident that it's not a sub MOA gun.

 

[Ryan Avery]

So you don't believe in flyers, bad cheek welds or several other variables that could affect a 10 round string? Do you fire 10 rounds every time you zero or only when developing a load? If 9 shots are in a group(.25) and 1 is .5 away, you're saying you have a .75+ MOA rifle? Just trying to wrap my head around zeroing with 10 round!

 

[Broz]

I get where you are coming from. I usually fire 3 to 5 three shot groups with a final load to confirm consistency. I break it up allowing cooling time as we shoot lots of big rifles and have to be careful of throat damage from the heat. I also will have a few extra rounds and if I knowingly pull one, I will send a 4th into group and mark the pulled one. I usually can see a pull at the break of the trigger.

So I guess we are kinda on the same page, at least as I see it as my 3 three shot groups would represent a 9 shot or more. Then I take the load to distance. Usually to my 1000 yard target and measure a 3 shot there. That not only gives data for my ballistic program but offers true proof of vertical dispersion and ES.

I have been doing it this way for years and it works for me.

Thanks for your clarifying post.
Jeff

 

[Sam Millard]

As to the cone-

Lets say a barrel has a usable life of 2,000 rounds and say for examples sake we fire all 2,000 rounds at 100 yards on one target with no adjustments to the scope whatsoever. The entire aggregate formed by all 2,000 rounds is the cone. Or what we call the group. The size of that cone/group is the smallest target that the system will mechanically hit. Take a rifle that generally shoots 3 rounds just under 1 MOA, in reality that gun is around a 2 MOA rifle. At least for the cone.


Thinking of that cone it becomes obvious that any 3 rounds are meaningless and show very, very little of where the next round will go. Lets say we have a person who is zeroing a rifle and fires a half inch 3 round "group" centered over his aiming point. Excitedly he goes and pulls the target, puts up a new one, and then fires three more. This time one is in the bull, one just on the edge and one a bit over an inch out. Disappointedly he says he "musta pulled" it and the proclaims his rifle is "sub MOA all day long.... As long as I do my part".... When in reality it was just random that his first three hit so close and the second group was just filling in the cone. Now most will freak when I say this- but again a 1 MOA 3 round group rifle is much closer to actually being a 2 MOA rifle and any shots fired will be a random event within that cone. Take our shooter above, not only does he not know what size target the gun will hit, but in this instance those six rounds just happened to be on the left side of the cone and his zero is now off almost 1 MOA.


Statistically 3 single events are meaningless. It takes at least 10 to start being even remotely relevant. We have tested several guns that were consistent 1 MOA rifles, and shot groups using backers to catch all the rounds fired for a composite group. At the end any one of the single 3 round groups was useless- giving something around a 60% probability where any one round will land. Five round groups were barely better with around 70%. But a single ten round group was fairly indicative giving higher than 90% of where any round would go. It took 5 three round groups on the same target to be 90%, 3 five round groups to be 90%, and 1 ten round group to be over 90%. That is 90% of round fired will stay on _____ size target. Two 10 round groups on the same target or one 20 round group gets it into the 98+ % range.

We see it all the time when 3 round "groups" are fired back to back, and yet they are not in quite the same location.

A rifle is only as accurate as the target that it will consistently hit. If it's a .5MOA rifle at 100 yards then it will put every round fired into a half inch dot at 100 yards. If you can't take your "sub MOA all day long" rifle and keep every round fired on a sub MOA target, then it should be evident that it's not a sub MOA gun.

I'm not sure if this post just got away from you, or you truly believe what you say. When it comes to rifles, precision and accuracy are two separate things, and need to be addressed as such.

A rifle's precision potential has to do with the group size it can produce; it's accuracy potential is mostly controlled by the sighting system and how well the shooter uses it. Firing a 10 shot group (or 20) to determine a rifle's precision potential is silly and counterproductive. There are too many variables in the real world that would affect a string of fire like that. A heavy benchrest gun, that the shooter has little influence over, could be tested like that, but not a hunting rifle.

With a rifle like the OP is asking about, I would fire several three round groups. Between each group, I would adjust the scope accordingly, and let the barrel cool to ambient temp. I would dry fire while the barrel is cooling to maximize my time at the range. Once I have the zero where I think it should be, I would fire one cold bore shot into the target. That target gets taken down and fired at the next time I'm shooting, with only the first shot of the day. This target will reveal the true precision AND accuracy potential of the shooter and the rifle.

 

[mtswampfox]

With a rifle like the OP is asking about, I would fire several three round groups. Between each group, I would adjust the scope accordingly, and let the barrel cool to ambient temp. I would dry fire while the barrel is cooling to maximize my time at the range. Once I have the zero where I think it should be, I would fire one cold bore shot into the target. That target gets taken down and fired at the next time I'm shooting, with only the first shot of the day. This target will reveal the true precision AND accuracy potential of the shooter and the rifle.[/QUOTE]

be liking this advice. especially that first shot from a truly ambient temperature. then we fast forward from range time in the summer on the flatlands, to 12000 feet in the mountains and the mercury around 10 degrees.Numb fingers and panting breath and where is that rifle bench when needed. Short of dragging along a generator and deep freeze our range experiments will have to suffice.

 

[AXEL]

I started shooting at Nelson, BC, in 1956, just north of Sams Idaho location and have had some instruction from a Bisley World Champion, who was first a BC Provincial policeman, then an Inspector in the BC Fish and Wildife.

I was an A student in school and college and while I understand the cone issue as stated above, I agree with Sam.

I have mostly quite costly rifles-guns and am careful how I use them, so, I tend to use 3 shot clusters to zero and it has worked for 50 years of intensive rifle use....so far, anyway. I see little value in shooting 10 shots per group and toasting my rifle barrels when it is NOT necessary.

The point is that my rifles WILL and DO hold zeros for YEARS and a quick three shots which impact at exactly the same spot as in previous years is enough to give me confidence in shooting at game.

My first Dakota 76-.338WM even in it's lovely wood did this for 17 years and then I had a composite stock by McMillan, made for Hill Country Rifles, installed by Martini Gunmakers.....VERY tiny groups that hit 2 inchs high at 100M and have remained zeroed that way for several years now.

We ARE, after all, talking HUNTING rifles here, NOT tactical sniper weapons.........

 

[unm1136]

I have a family heirloom 30-06 that I shoot ALOT. I have shot it enough to know how it behaves. If I don't let it cool a full 10-15 minutes between each shot my zero starts starts to wander with my 4th round. I have shot it enough to know to within 1 MOA where rounds 4-10 will go. The reason I have shot it so much that I can plot my barrel warp is because I am not inclined to fix anything on this gun while my father in law is alive. This gun painfully got me away from expecting much precision. With this rifle an 8 inch paper plate is my most frequent target, and when I am practiced I can put the first three rounds into an eight inch circle at any cadence I choose out to 400-500 yards when braced standing or kneeling, or unsupported sitting or prone.

Learning this gun was one of the biggest shooting challenges of my life, i had to give up chasing groups with it and focus on making it do what I figured I needed it to do. I really like Sam's answer, but when this thing warms up it can be a headache. At the range it tends to go bang 3-5 times an hour. In the not too distant future I will be dropping some coin on a better rifle, but I really think learning my limits with this rifle taught me a lot more about shooting than shooting pretty cloverleafs with my AR ever did. After learning the '06, my AR seemed to get more accurate at all distances.

Sorry for the thread drift. I've been up since this time yesterday between work and a sick kid.

pat

 

[hunting1]

With my Kimber Montanas and Gen 1 Remy Ti, I shoot 3-shot groups just as if i were hunting with follow up shots. It is a hunting rifle so you need to know where the hits are going to be. For load development then I would agree with letting it cool a few minutes between shots. Mine does open a bit when hot but still minute of dead game.
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